Change the Scratch Domain

Steve0Greatness

han614698 wrote:
Based on past posts here I obviously disagree with this, but I am curious one thing -

Can someone explain in a fairly short way, why are we suggesting this?

Easy. Scratch.org is just a better domain all round.

han614698 wrote:
Scratch still had ties with MIT in 2022 at least, and there's really no reason for the extra trouble to get rid of the .mit.edu domain - it's just extra work. If people want a shorter domain use scratch.org

As stated in the OP, Scratch != MIT. Even if there's a working relationship, companies and organizations work together all the time; as an example, Microsoft and OpenAI have had a working relationship for awhile now, but I doubt you'll see OpenAI being at openai.microsoft.com any time soon.

/hj is the worst tone indicator. It's confusing and ambiguous. I hate it. The point of tone indicators is to indicate tone, or the way that a piece of text should be read, but what does “half joking” mean? Do you just wake up in the morning and think “wow, I really have something I want to talk about seriously but also kinda not, IDK you decide.” It's useless. I hate it. It just provokes a deep rooted anger within me whenever I see it. People just comment /hj as if it makes any sense. It doesn't. Oh wow, it's a tone indicator that's has a relative meaning, how useful, I'll use it in every comment I post. NO. STOP IT. You're a tone indicator, you have only one job, and yet you sit there doing nothing apart angering me.

/srs

^^^ (there's more below)
This one is useful because it tells you that this signature is fully 100% serious. (/srs) Who would've thought that tone indicators needed to tell you something about the piece of text they're attached to? /s

I'm serious, I'm not even going to put multiple (/hj)s a the end of my signature as to mock the previous paragraph for not getting the point of something(like previous version of my signature). /srs

dynamicsofscratch

BwnnyRxbbit wrote:
(#367)
CatClawz_ wrote:
don't support
there's nothing wrong with .mit.edu no reason to change it
plus scratch.mit.edu is iconic we can't change that
People said the blue navbar was iconic but what did the ST do? Change it to be purple.

that's the st's fault
that was prolly the dumbest things the st could have done
like why color contrast

aII toasters toast toast, but what happens when there are no longer toasters being produced? will their technology simply become obsolete, with humans moving onto bigger, better things? will toast become a distant memory, written in textbooks of the future as foods us simpler generations ate? who's to say! society is constantly moving, changing, evolving, ideas being built upon, improved upon, theories being proven or disproven. are we but a blip on the timeline? sure, our names may not be remembered, but that's not the point. you can make a change. you can make a difference. you can make the world better, even if you don't know yet. and the first step is to go for it. even if you are afraid of failure. going back to the example of toasters, do you know off the top of your head who invented them? no? have you used one? probably. so, even if you don't remember my name, if I was able to help awnser your question, that is enough. if I was able to help you, even in the slightest way, this could push you to continue with scratch and not give up after the program crashes, and maybe one day learn other programming languages and change the world. everything is a cause and effect reaction, new inventions lead to the technology of the future, and even as the generations of the past are slowly forgotten, their influence lives on to this day, affecting how the world eventually turned out and how it will be for generations to come.

and, without toasters, we wouldn't have toast.

Regards
dynamicsofscratch

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dynamicsofscratch

Here are 10 reasons to not change the scratch domain

https://scratch.mit.edu is the original Scratch domain
Migration to different domains such as https://scratch.org would be counterintuitive
Scratch was created by the Lifelong Kindergarten group at MIT and the only reason it broke apart was due to its sheer size
The argument that Scratch is not an educational institution is true, but when it was created it was made by an educational institute: MIT
MIT still holds a hand in Scratch, because AFAIK, Scratch Foundation has Lifelong Kindergarten group actively collaborating with Scratch
Scratch's backend aka the servers AFAIK are still maintained by MIT
As stated in 2., Migration is counterintuitive because already a lot of people are on the domain and many schools (like mine) refer to this domain
Migration would also mean that the website would not be available for a long time, until the migration had completely happened.
Scratch's API also runs on the scratch.mit.edu domain, so that would be another technical hurdle
This one is a bit emotional, but scratch.mit.edu is the original, nostalgic domain in which we brought coding into our lives. Taking this away, would be taking away years of memories that Scratchers have made on this platform

There are another buttload of reasons which I will think of eventually, but for now let's stick with these guys

#ProtectThatDomain

aII toasters toast toast, but what happens when there are no longer toasters being produced? will their technology simply become obsolete, with humans moving onto bigger, better things? will toast become a distant memory, written in textbooks of the future as foods us simpler generations ate? who's to say! society is constantly moving, changing, evolving, ideas being built upon, improved upon, theories being proven or disproven. are we but a blip on the timeline? sure, our names may not be remembered, but that's not the point. you can make a change. you can make a difference. you can make the world better, even if you don't know yet. and the first step is to go for it. even if you are afraid of failure. going back to the example of toasters, do you know off the top of your head who invented them? no? have you used one? probably. so, even if you don't remember my name, if I was able to help awnser your question, that is enough. if I was able to help you, even in the slightest way, this could push you to continue with scratch and not give up after the program crashes, and maybe one day learn other programming languages and change the world. everything is a cause and effect reaction, new inventions lead to the technology of the future, and even as the generations of the past are slowly forgotten, their influence lives on to this day, affecting how the world eventually turned out and how it will be for generations to come.

and, without toasters, we wouldn't have toast.

Regards
dynamicsofscratch

Anything above that grey line is a signature!
Also, anything can be put in your signature, (also referred as a siggy) including ads but! You cannot do anything else that violates the community guidelines as, you will be reported and you could be banned/muted.
Computer enthusiast, coder, designer and a offline veteran.
700th post

GlitchedThrough

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
https://scratch.mit.edu is the original Scratch domain

And Scratch 1.x is the original version.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
Migration to different domains such as https://scratch.org would be counterintuitive

How?

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
Scratch was created by the Lifelong Kindergarten group at MIT and the only reason it broke apart was due to its sheer size

Yet they still broke off.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
The argument that Scratch is not an educational institution is true, but when it was created it was made by an educational institute: MIT

Not anymore, though.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
MIT still holds a hand in Scratch, because AFAIK, Scratch Foundation has Lifelong Kindergarten group actively collaborating with Scratch

They’ve also collaborated with Lego, Google and Amazon.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
Scratch's backend aka the servers AFAIK are still maintained by MIT

Most of the backend is hosted on AWS AFAIK.
So should it be Scratch.amazon.com?

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
As stated in 2., Migration is counterintuitive because already a lot of people are on the domain and many schools (like mine) refer to this domain

They can easily change what they refer to.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
Migration would also mean that the website would not be available for a long time, until the migration had completely happened.

It’s just changing a few DNS settings, and then waiting for it to update.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
Scratch's API also runs on the scratch.mit.edu domain, so that would be another technical hurdle

The API can easily still be on an MIT domain while they work out the main site.

dynamicsofscratch wrote:
This one is a bit emotional, but scratch.mit.edu is the original, nostalgic domain in which we brought coding into our lives. Taking this away, would be taking away years of memories that Scratchers have made on this platform

However, throughout life, change will happen. Might as well teach some people that now.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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han614698

Steve0Greatness wrote:
han614698 wrote:
Based on past posts here I obviously disagree with this, but I am curious one thing -

Can someone explain in a fairly short way, why are we suggesting this?
Easy. Scratch.org is just a better domain all round.

han614698 wrote:
Scratch still had ties with MIT in 2022 at least, and there's really no reason for the extra trouble to get rid of the .mit.edu domain - it's just extra work. If people want a shorter domain use scratch.org
As stated in the OP, Scratch != MIT. Even if there's a working relationship, companies and organizations work together all the time; as an example, Microsoft and OpenAI have had a working relationship for awhile now, but I doubt you'll see OpenAI being at openai.microsoft.com any time soon.

But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu

Credit to -gge for the icons in my signature | I condensed all this code into five lines using [p] tags, idk why

GlitchedThrough

han614698 wrote:
But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu

So, what’s wrong with using the .edu domain to redirect?

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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han614698

GlitchedThrough wrote:
han614698 wrote:
But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu
So, what’s wrong with using the .edu domain to redirect?

People typically associate trust with an edu domain, even if org domains are perfectly fine.

Credit to -gge for the icons in my signature | I condensed all this code into five lines using [p] tags, idk why

GlitchedThrough

han614698 wrote:
GlitchedThrough wrote:
han614698 wrote:
But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu
So, what’s wrong with using the .edu domain to redirect?
People typically associate trust with an edu domain, even if org domains are perfectly fine.

Please provide a statistic to back up your claim, and prove its substantial enough for a site in the context of Scratch’s case.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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alwayspaytaxes

The utter destruction of my muscle memory regarding the rememberence to type scratch.mit.edu would outweigh any pros of moving the domain, imo

-\{:)_/-

play sound [bad to the bone riff.wav v]

GlitchedThrough

alwayspaytaxes wrote:
The utter destruction of my muscle memory regarding the rememberence to type scratch.mit.edu would outweigh any pros of moving the domain, imo

They could still use scratch.mit.edu to redirect to scratch.org

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
YouTuber, culinary enthusiast, computer scientist, programmer, Engineer, electric enthusiast, legal aficionado, etc

alwayspaytaxes

GlitchedThrough wrote:
alwayspaytaxes wrote:
The utter destruction of my muscle memory regarding the rememberence to type scratch.mit.edu would outweigh any pros of moving the domain, imo
They could still use scratch.mit.edu to redirect to scratch.org

Redirects are too slow for my prized workstation setup..

Okay all lolz aside I don't really have an issue with this, in fact it would likely clear up any associations of Scratch with MIT (although being associated with MIT should be a good thing no?)

-\{:)_/-

play sound [bad to the bone riff.wav v]

Steve0Greatness

han614698 wrote:
But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu

I don't get what the issue with doing this for scratch.mit.edu > scratch.or is.

han614698 wrote:
People typically associate trust with an edu domain, even if org domains are perfectly fine.

I have never heard of .org being untrustworthy outside of this topic.

And while I get that EDU means it's a university, and universities are usually trustworthy, there's no reason for a coding website to need this level of accreditation. Whilst it is often used in education: it is not the teacher; and if Kahn Academy is able to get by perfectly well with an ORG domain whilst being the teacher, then Scratch definitely can.

alwayspaytaxes wrote:
Okay all lolz aside I don't really have an issue with this, in fact it would likely clear up any associations of Scratch with MIT (although being associated with MIT should be a good thing no?)

Scratch Foundation is already not associated with MIT(at least not officially); since Scratch Foundation owns Scratch, the URL shouldn't imply MIT does.

Last edited by Steve0Greatness (May 15, 2024 18:51:19)

/hj is the worst tone indicator. It's confusing and ambiguous. I hate it. The point of tone indicators is to indicate tone, or the way that a piece of text should be read, but what does “half joking” mean? Do you just wake up in the morning and think “wow, I really have something I want to talk about seriously but also kinda not, IDK you decide.” It's useless. I hate it. It just provokes a deep rooted anger within me whenever I see it. People just comment /hj as if it makes any sense. It doesn't. Oh wow, it's a tone indicator that's has a relative meaning, how useful, I'll use it in every comment I post. NO. STOP IT. You're a tone indicator, you have only one job, and yet you sit there doing nothing apart angering me.

/srs

^^^ (there's more below)
This one is useful because it tells you that this signature is fully 100% serious. (/srs) Who would've thought that tone indicators needed to tell you something about the piece of text they're attached to? /s

I'm serious, I'm not even going to put multiple (/hj)s a the end of my signature as to mock the previous paragraph for not getting the point of something(like previous version of my signature). /srs

preshunk3

Steve0Greatness wrote:
han614698 wrote:
Based on past posts here I obviously disagree with this, but I am curious one thing -

Can someone explain in a fairly short way, why are we suggesting this?
Easy. Scratch.org is just a better domain all round.

that's like saying “my opinion is better”
reasons please

Last edited by preshunk3 (May 15, 2024 19:09:57)

i have preshrunk several times today

Pretendo: (Wii u) preshunk3

starlightsparker

I found a flaw
The redirect only works to the homepage.
For example, an old link to scratch.Mit.edu/projects/1 would redirect to scratch.org without the /projects/1

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preshunk3

Steve0Greatness wrote:
preshunk3 wrote:
No support, neglecting the effort that went into the original versions of this site could offend some. Changing it to scratch.org could do so.
Changing the URL isn't neglecting the effort. If anything, I think moving to their own domain would be a major payoff for all that effort.

Scratch been a property of MIT for decades, so moving to their own domain would kinda be like them doing their own thing, independent from MIT(even if there are still ties to MIT in many ways). But that's just me.

If you're talking about how it could offend MIT: it won't. Even if it would, they would have been more offended when Scratch Team split off into Scratch Foundation and were given ownership of Scratch by MIT.

preshunk3 wrote:
It really wouldn't change anything about the site either, so there's really no reason to change it.
Not every change has to change much of anything about the site itself.

For instance, the most recent (human made) commit to the Scratch-GUI repo is just a version bump, that doesn't affect the site at all. Especially since the changes in 4.0.4 are just version bumps of Scratch-Paint and React Tooltip.

In addition, Scratch Foundation appears to be updating their logo to be the 3.0 version of the Scratch logo(this is just going off of their GitHub profile picture), this also doesn't affect the site. In addition, the changing of the original logo really shows disrespect to the original logo. /j

But really, not every change has to effect the site much for that change to happen.

Point forfeited, though I don't think we should just remove most things about MIT's influence on the site here.

i have preshrunk several times today

Pretendo: (Wii u) preshunk3

han614698

Steve0Greatness wrote:
han614698 wrote:
But scratch.org already redirects here. So if you prefer that, use it. Perhaps a more likely suggestion for the ST is to make scratch.org fully redirect, meaning:

scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu/projects/28472936
vs
scratch.org/projects/28472936 > scratch.mit.edu
I don't get what the issue with doing this for scratch.mit.edu > scratch.or is.

Because I still haven’t heard a good reason. This isn’t necessarily the best reason but it’s always been .edu. Changing it now without a good reason isn’t smart. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

And on the other thing, I agree, scratch doesn’t need that level of trust. But it doesn’t hurt to have it.

My entire point in this is not that Scratch.org is bad, but that its an unnecessary change that’s not worth it even if it only negatively effects one person. There’s tons of potential cons but no pros.

And your answer to my question “why” with “because it’s better” is not an answer and that’s literally just you saying because “I think it’s better”. Give me a couple pros to this to offset the potential cons.

Last edited by han614698 (May 15, 2024 20:56:01)

Credit to -gge for the icons in my signature | I condensed all this code into five lines using [p] tags, idk why

Steve0Greatness

starlightsparker wrote:
I found a flaw
The redirect only works to the homepage.
For example, an old link to scratch.Mit.edu/projects/1 would redirect to scratch.org without the /projects/1

I linked my own redirect template in the OP, which does properly carry over paths. So scratch.mit.edu/projects/100 would go to scratch.org/projects/100.

Also, this goes opposite currently. As if the domain isn't changed, going to scratch.org/projects/100 still only redirects you to scratch.mit.edu.

han614698 wrote:
My entire point in this is not that Scratch.org is bad, but that its an unnecessary change that’s not worth it even if it only negatively effects one person. There’s tons of potential cons but no pros.

What cons?

han614698 wrote:
Because I still haven’t heard a good reason. This isn’t necessarily the best reason but it’s always been .edu. Changing it now without a good reason isn’t smart. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I dislike the “if it ain't broke, don't fix it” argument. Scratch clearly doesn't follow this philosophy, as Scratch has:

Completely changing hands
Entirely rewriting Scratch for Scratch3 and ScratchWWW

preshunk3 wrote:
that's like saying “my opinion is better”
reasons please

han614698 wrote:
And your answer to my question “why” with “because it’s better” is not an answer and that’s literally just you saying because “I think it’s better”. Give me a couple pros to this to offset the potential cons.

It'll reduce confusion about Scratch being owned by MIT. I know that I've been confused by this in the past, so it could reduce this.
The domain, at least in terms of marketing, is better. Shorter and memorable domains are commonly accepted to be better domains, at least in the marketing world. This is what I meant by “it's better.”
Scratch Foundation and ScratchJR both have their own ORG domains, this could introduce cohesion within their domains.
It seems to have gone fairly well for the Scratch Wiki. In 2018, they made their domain scratch-wiki.info rather than wiki.scratch.mit.edu; but this hasn't killed the Scratch Wiki. Although, clearly. more care would need to be taken with Scratch itself.

Last edited by Steve0Greatness (May 16, 2024 02:05:28)

/hj is the worst tone indicator. It's confusing and ambiguous. I hate it. The point of tone indicators is to indicate tone, or the way that a piece of text should be read, but what does “half joking” mean? Do you just wake up in the morning and think “wow, I really have something I want to talk about seriously but also kinda not, IDK you decide.” It's useless. I hate it. It just provokes a deep rooted anger within me whenever I see it. People just comment /hj as if it makes any sense. It doesn't. Oh wow, it's a tone indicator that's has a relative meaning, how useful, I'll use it in every comment I post. NO. STOP IT. You're a tone indicator, you have only one job, and yet you sit there doing nothing apart angering me.

/srs

^^^ (there's more below)
This one is useful because it tells you that this signature is fully 100% serious. (/srs) Who would've thought that tone indicators needed to tell you something about the piece of text they're attached to? /s

I'm serious, I'm not even going to put multiple (/hj)s a the end of my signature as to mock the previous paragraph for not getting the point of something(like previous version of my signature). /srs

han614698

Here's the thing though - scratch-www was supposed to work on mobile devices better - so, in a way, scratchr2 was broken.
Cons:
Some (even just one) people might not trust it as much
It's just an extra change that could make people confused
Autoblocking from schools could become an issue
Scratch does still have some ties to MIT
Scratch isn't on bad terms with MIT so there's no need to disassociate. This entire thing just feels unnecessary. It's necessarily all about the fact that there's a couple of cons, but more about the fact that there's no pros

Credit to -gge for the icons in my signature | I condensed all this code into five lines using [p] tags, idk why

han614698

Steve0Greatness wrote:
It'll reduce confusion about Scratch being owned by MIT. I know that I've been confused by this in the past, so it could reduce this.
The domain, at least in terms of marketing, is better. Shorter and memorable domains are commonly accepted to be better domains, at least in the marketing world. This is what I meant by “it's better.”
Scratch Foundation and ScratchJR both have their own ORG domains, this could introduce cohesion within their domains.
It seems to have gone fairly well for the Scratch Wiki. In 2018, they made their domain scratch-wiki.info rather than wiki.scratch.mit.edu; but this hasn't killed the Scratch Wiki. Although, clearly. more care would need to be taken with Scratch itself.

1. But why does that matter? Yes, they aren't owned by MIT, but they are still associated.
2. I agree with this point, except the fact that scratch.org already works.
3. It could, but why? Honestly I never got why SJ and SF have their own websites vs subdomains here.
4. That is true, but they are also an encyclopedia that switched to an encyclopedia name.

Credit to -gge for the icons in my signature | I condensed all this code into five lines using [p] tags, idk why

GlitchedThrough

han614698 wrote:
Here's the thing though - scratch-www was supposed to work on mobile devices better - so, in a way, scratchr2 was broken.

Scratch ain’t for mobile.

han614698 wrote:
Cons:
Some (even just one) people might not trust it as much

Crappy cyber security classes will do that.

han614698 wrote:
It's just an extra change that could make people confused

Redirection from *mit.edu would solve that, right?

han614698 wrote:
Autoblocking from schools could become an issuep

If they autoblock domains, thats on them.

han614698 wrote:
Scratch does still have some ties to MIT

They also have ties to Google. And Amazon. And LEGO.

han614698 wrote:
Scratch isn't on bad terms with MIT so there's no need to disassociate.

Yet the Scratch Foundation is separate. Or should they get Scratch.LEGO.com, being in good standings with LEGO.

han614698 wrote:
This entire thing just feels unnecessary. It's necessarily all about the fact that there's a couple of cons, but more about the fact that there's no pros

-If MIT wants to, scratch.mit.edu goes bye-bye.
-They’re dependent upon MIT for the domain.
-They’re a separate entity, and already own scratch.org.
-It’s an easy move and easy change to make.

There's no place like 127.0.0.1
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