Ok,Post edited deleted thingy.
I will not bring it back.
END OF STORY

Blaze349 wrote:

it is because it encourages bad laggy programming habits

I understand this. But, maybe, having an option to use it, wouldn't be bad. In this way students could at least initially use it, so to be able to quickly create interesting programs without having to remember complex things. Then they cold move to the forever+if shortcut (something that my students do very soon). So, if having it in the palette is so dangerous, what I would do (and will do if it doesn't come back) is the following:

• showing the FOREVER IF block in the palette
  
• the very first time (or maybe after a while) it is used I would show a dialog saying if the user would like to replace it with an equivalent and more efficient FOREVER + IF sequence, by giving the option to remove it from the palette and not to show the dialog again
  
• adding an option in the EDIT menu to allow/disallow showing the block in the palette and show the dialog
  

Indeed, I guess that enforcing good programming habits is not the right things to do. Instead, teaching them is much better.

s_federici wrote:

Indeed, I guess that enforcing good programming habits is not the right things to do. Instead, teaching them is much better.

no you have to do both

I wouldn't say having to remember one extra block is that complex

Well can't you just tell someone:

There used to be a block called “forever if”, which would constantly check if the condition was true and would run it if so. But, as the name suggests, it is simply a forever block + an if block, which is considered better programming habits.

I mean I don't know, as I have never had to teach anyone Scratch, but it seems like saying something about the forever if block and how its replacement should work.

maybe we should close this topic since no one supports Forever if

If you want an answer from the Scratch Team, then it would be faster to ask on one of their profiles.

I duno about others, but I've never once used it, in fact, when I started, I kind of feared it more than variables…

s_federici wrote:

Sonickyle wrote:

The main reason it was removed is because new Scratchers were getting confused about what it does

I would like to know if this is the official reason. And if the Scratch Team is still thinking about it.

There was a post by Lightnin (from the ST) somewhere saying essentially what Sonickyle said: it was removed because they found in user testing that it was confusing to new users. The ST aren't considering it anymore, and are very unlikely to ever add it back.

I think it was the right move to remove it - as a beginner's language there should be clarity between loops and conditions

<[e] = ((mc) * (mc))>

firedrake969_test wrote:

I wouldn't say having to remember one extra block is that complex

it clearly indicates that programming ain't your thing if you have to remember what each block does individually, instead of going the other way, from an idea, into which blocks. Also, dosen't scratch fix that anyways? “change x by”. whatever could it do? The forever if block on the other hand….

Thanks to anyone that took part in this discussion

siewake wrote:

I think it was the right move to remove it - as a beginner's language there should be clarity between loops and conditions

There are still blocks in Scratch that integrate loops and conditions: “when key pressed”, “when clicked”. As far as I know, the Forever If block was a replacement for a general “when <condition>” hat (the perfect block to me), that kept being triggered if the condition was true (than slowing down Scratch). And the “when” block is exactly what a naive (and reluctant…) programmer would like to see

Blaze349 wrote:

maybe we should close this topic since no one supports Forever if

Maybe we should start asking the community I guess the discussion should involve the remaining 200.000 active scratchers

Although the community may have input (and has had its chance), it's still the ST's final decision.

xlk wrote:

firedrake969_test wrote:

I wouldn't say having to remember one extra block is that complex

it clearly indicates that programming ain't your thing if you have to remember what each block does individually, instead of going the other way, from an idea, into which blocks. Also, dosen't scratch fix that anyways? “change x by”. whatever could it do? The forever if block on the other hand….

Exactly.

No support.

if <> then
    
forever
    
end
end

not needed. its the same as

when green flag clicked
forever
    
if <> then
    
end
end

As I already explained, the ST have removed it, and aren't considering bringing it back.

I could probably dig out Lightnin's post from the archives if you really really wanted.

s_federici wrote:

a general “when <condition>” hat (the perfect block to me), that kept being triggered if the condition was true (than slowing down Scratch).

No, the condition would still have to be evaluated every frame.

Particularly for complex conditions like this one:

when <<key [space v] pressed> and <mouse down?>> :: control hat
...

blob8108 wrote:

No, the condition would still have to be evaluated every frame.

Yes, exactly. And this is why it was replaced by the (I really don't understand why) much “hated” Forever If block, that requires the green flag to be clicked before getting triggered. Anyway, I added it to Snap, and it works really well If someone wants it, I can share the “changeset”. I'll do the same with Scratch 2.0 as soon as the source code is officially released.

There's a work-around to this.

forever
    
if <> then
    
end
end

I don't think it is needed. I just always use

forever
    
if <> then
    
end
end

s_federici wrote:

Sonickyle wrote:

The main reason it was removed is because new Scratchers were getting confused about what it does

If this is the reason, why not to reword it to “every time that”? O else? Just removing the block is a very drastic solution to me.

Anyway, I found opinions like this one around, but I would like to know if this is the official reason. And if the Scratch Team is still thinking about it.

The main point of Scratch (as far as I'm concerned) is that people can get a handle on programming, how it works, and just basically get knowledge on how programming works.

Now, if this is the main purpose of Scratch, then they very well should NOT use “every time that” or “Or else” because this is never (I'm pretty sure) the syntax for actual programming, it's always an “If” statement. so, if it was changed, someone using Scratch to get a proper introduction to programming would see the “every time that” or whatever, and get used to it, then go into regular programming, and see that “if” is used, and then that person will suddenly be like “WHAAAT?”. That's my thought on that.