Change the way the "What the community is loving/remixing" section works.

calulord

bump

jokebookservice1

The justifications you've given are not for the suggestion to “Divide loves by follows”. Many have pointed out flaws in that. What you're trying to do is to make already-popular projects have their love-its weighted less so that less-popular projects have a chance to climb up.

Followers is a causal factor of the popularity a project will receive. It's not one and the same.

And if 50 people love your project, that doesn't mean the entire community loves your projects.

How can we solve the above two issues? Directly measure how popular a project is compared to how many love-its it receives. That is to say, I think an improved version of this suggestion is to determine the percentage of the subsection of the community that viewed your project who left a love-it.

So, if a project is viewed ten times, but it is loved 5 times – it has a score of 50%. That means 50% of the community so far likes the project, and so if we extrapolate, 50% of the total community might like it. Naturally, we'd need a minimum threshold, else if a project is viewed once and gets 1 love-it, it would get 100%! But beyond that, I completely agree, it might make sense to weigh (additional?) love-its slightly less due to the popularity.

It would be interesting to study statistically – how much of a factor the number of followers is. Not everyone will see it in their activity feed and so perhaps it's not the dominant factor, but we can't know.

What are your thoughts on all this?

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
LionHeart70 wrote:
Also, as -ShadowOfTheFuture- pointed out, users don't always get lots of followers because of their projects. My projects usually get about 2-5 loves and favorites each, but I have 792 followers currently (I don't know why, but I'm thinking it's for a few reasons; when I was newer to Scratch I used to comment on a lot of projects; I have multiple projects so maybe some of my followers just found some of them and followed me; I'm active on the forums so maybe someone just found me there; maybe some other reasons idk), so this could be unfair to users who aren't as well-known despite having a lot of followers (such as me).
Again I already said this 10 to the power of a trillion times, if you have little loves despite having a large amount of followers, then that's probably because you haven't really made any serious projects.

Actually, there are plenty of people who make serious projects that they put effort into, have a lot of followers, and still aren't front-paged every time they post a project.

Most of the people here have already voiced flaws/loopholes in this, and yes, less popular people should get more attention, but i do see people ive never heard of in the top loved/remixed section, and it works fine for now.

No support

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

jokebookservice1 wrote:
The justifications you've given are not for the suggestion to “Divide loves by follows”. Many have pointed out flaws in that. What you're trying to do is to make already-popular projects have their love-its weighted less so that less-popular projects have a chance to climb up.

Followers is a causal factor of the popularity a project will receive. It's not one and the same.
-snip-

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
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Actually, there are plenty of people who make serious projects that they put effort into, have a lot of followers, and still aren't front-paged every time they post a project.
-snip-

calulord wrote:
muellly wrote:
calulord wrote:
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muellly wrote:
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I know that popularity doesn't equal followers, but I do believe followers are a good way to estimate it.

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
I know that popularity doesn't equal followers, but I do believe followers are a good way to estimate it.

We're not saying popularity=followers. We're saying that people who have more followers can still put a lot of work into a project and would b at a disadvantage to somebody else who has less followers.

For example:
Let's say person A has about 100 followers and spends a few days on a project, and shares it, and gets a decent amount of loves.

Then person B spends 20 minutes on a project that isn't as good as person A's project, but they have around 50 followers, and got the same amount of loves.

Person B has less followers, and didnt put that much effort into a project but is prioritized due to low followers, whilst person A has more followers and a better project

The Top loved section is for projects that deserve it and isn't meant for projects that dont have as much effort. sure, a person can have an advantage due to their followers, but the system still works fine. I still see plenty of non-popular scratchers on the top loved.

I'll stand by my response of no support

Last edited by Remix-the-Dragon (June 16, 2018 15:41:16)

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
For example:
Let's say person A has about 100 followers and spends a few days on a project, and shares it, and gets a decent amount of loves.

Then person B spends 20 minutes on a project that isn't as good as person A's project, but they have around 50 followers, and got the same amount of loves.

Person B has less followers, and didnt put that much effort into a project but is prioritized due to low followers, whilst person A has more followers and a better project
-snip-

Just because you can make up a scenario where something doesn't works, and not give anything to support the idea that said scenario is plausible, does't mean you have refuted the idea that said thing could work.

Last edited by calulord (June 16, 2018 16:26:18)

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
For example:
Let's say person A has about 100 followers and spends a few days on a project, and shares it, and gets a decent amount of loves.

Then person B spends 20 minutes on a project that isn't as good as person A's project, but they have around 50 followers, and got the same amount of loves.

Person B has less followers, and didnt put that much effort into a project but is prioritized due to low followers, whilst person A has more followers and a better project
-snip-
Just because you can make up a scenario where something doesn't works, and not give anything to support the idea that said scenario is plausible, does't mean you have refuted the idea that said thing could work.

It's a logical scenario, it can happen easily. Sure, it won't happen exactly like that but it can happen.

I've given my reasons as to why I don't support it, and I agree with everyone else that doesn't support it.

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
Just because you can make up a scenario where something doesn't works, and not give anything to support the idea that said scenario is plausible, does't mean you have refuted the idea that said thing could work.

It's a logical scenario, it can happen easily. Sure, it won't happen exactly like that but it can happen.

I've given my reasons as to why I don't support it, and I agree with everyone else that doesn't support it.

Yes. To say that a project could get as many loves as a project than is far better and by somebody with twice as many followers is a very logical scenario.

Last edited by calulord (June 16, 2018 19:16:48)

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
Just because you can make up a scenario where something doesn't works, and not give anything to support the idea that said scenario is plausible, does't mean you have refuted the idea that said thing could work.

It's a logical scenario, it can happen easily. Sure, it won't happen exactly like that but it can happen.

I've given my reasons as to why I don't support it, and I agree with everyone else that doesn't support it.
Yes. To say that a project could get as many loves as a project than is far better and by somebody with twice as many followers is a very logical scenario.

Look, as I said, I'm standing by my point.

Yes, it's actually a bit more unlikely to happen now that I look back on it, but still.

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
-snip-

It's a logical scenario, it can happen easily. Sure, it won't happen exactly like that but it can happen.

I've given my reasons as to why I don't support it, and I agree with everyone else that doesn't support it.
Yes. To say that a project could get as many loves as a project than is far better and by somebody with twice as many followers is a very logical scenario.

Look, as I said, I'm standing by my point.

Yes, it's actually a bit more unlikely to happen now that I look back on it, but still.

So, your still standing by your point, even though I refuted it?

Last edited by calulord (June 16, 2018 22:01:11)

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
-snip-
-snip-
-snip-

It's a logical scenario, it can happen easily. Sure, it won't happen exactly like that but it can happen.

I've given my reasons as to why I don't support it, and I agree with everyone else that doesn't support it.
Yes. To say that a project could get as many loves as a project than is far better and by somebody with twice as many followers is a very logical scenario.

Look, as I said, I'm standing by my point.

Yes, it's actually a bit more unlikely to happen now that I look back on it, but still.
So, your still standing by your point, even though I refuted it?

Yes, because I agree with everyone else's points

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Look, as I said, I'm standing by my point.

Yes, it's actually a bit more unlikely to happen now that I look back on it, but still.
So, your still standing by your point, even though I refuted it?

Yes, because I agree with everyone else's points

Which I already discredited over and over again?

Last edited by calulord (June 17, 2018 12:28:16)

Remix-the-Dragon

calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Look, as I said, I'm standing by my point.

Yes, it's actually a bit more unlikely to happen now that I look back on it, but still.
So, your still standing by your point, even though I refuted it?

Yes, because I agree with everyone else's points
Which I already discredited over and over again?

If it were something like this:

ACE009 wrote:
Just to deal with inactive followers, it would likely work better if it was by views. Then it only counts those who looked at the project and not anyone that happened to like the creator. Also, the minimum denominator would have to be like 20 - 50 so that if there was only one person, it wouldn't automatically go to the front page for just that one person.

I'd probably agree with your suggestion a bit.

Because ghost followers would lessen a person's chances. I have put quite a bit of effort into some of my projects. I have nearly 500 followers and still only average maybe 10 loves at most on a project, so I have a lot of ghost followers. If your suggestion was in action, let's say I made this really good project, and more people love it and follow me, which would give me an even less chance of being on the front page (if I wanted to), since most of my followers don't even look at my projects besides those few new ones.

It'd just be a bit hard to change how the front page works, and there are also quite a few ways for new users to introduce themselves and gain popularity, even though Scratch isn't really about that. Besides, some popular people LIKE to get top-loved, and even then, you can tell it's a well deserved project.

It'd be kind of neat if we could have two top-loved sections for people with a lower amount of followers and one for people with more followers to give equality for both, but that's a whole suggestion on it's own.

Still, I see PLENTY of less popular scratchers that i've never heard of on top loved, and it kind of works just fine to me. Sure,, there are a few people who get top-loved a lot, but that's because they deserve it, and so did the less popular scratchers. We also have the explore page (I mean, I never look at it, but there are a load of opportunities there too).

Not meaning to start a whole argument or something, just saying I think it works fine.

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Because ghost followers would lessen a person's chances.

Though while ghost followers may give people and underserved advantage, it probably be outweighed by other factors. Look up “Fermi estimation”.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
I have put quite a bit of effort into some of my projects. I have nearly 500 followers and still only average maybe 10 loves at most on a project, so I have a lot of ghost followers. If your suggestion was in action, let's say I made this really good project, and more people love it and follow me, which would give me an even less chance of being on the front page (if I wanted to), since most of my followers don't even look at my projects besides those few new ones.

Becuase people are the least biased and most objective judges of themselves. And effort definitely equals quality, it totally isn’t possible to put a lot of effort into a piece of garbage.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
It'd just be a bit hard to change how the front page works,

Why?

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
and there are also quite a few ways for new users to introduce themselves and gain popularity, even though Scratch isn't really about that.

The loving/remixing row isn’t just to give some people popularity that deserve it. It’s to put the spotlight on great projects.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Besides, some popular people LIKE to get top-loved, and even then, you can tell it's a well deserved project.

I already said this a billion times. If someone is popular and quality project, they’ll still have a high quality-to-follower ratio. Becuase of their popularity and quality combined.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
-snip-
Still, I see PLENTY of less popular scratchers that i've never heard of on top loved, and it kind of works just fine to me.

Just becuase less popular people get front paged doesn’t mean that their’re the ones that deserve it.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Sure,, there are a few people who get top-loved a lot, but that's because they deserve it, and so did the less popular scratchers.

“Becuase I said so”

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
We also have the explore page (I mean, I never look at it, but there are a load of opportunities there too).

I don’t know how the explore page works, but I bet it’s other system that gives popular scratchers an advantage just becuase they are popular.

Last edited by calulord (June 18, 2018 12:43:22)

Remix-the-Dragon

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
I have put quite a bit of effort into some of my projects. I have nearly 500 followers and still only average maybe 10 loves at most on a project, so I have a lot of ghost followers. If your suggestion was in action, let's say I made this really good project, and more people love it and follow me, which would give me an even less chance of being on the front page (if I wanted to), since most of my followers don't even look at my projects besides those few new ones.
calulord wrote:
Becuase people are the least biased and most objective judges of themselves. And effort definitely equals quality, it totally isn’t possible to put a lot of effort into a piece of garbage

I never said I liked my projects if anything I hate them more than everyone else because they ARE mine. But Effort normally does equal somewhat quality. A project that a person spent longer on would look better than a project someone didn't put effort on, since they're getting more practice, and are getting better at what they're doing, unless the person was intentionally making it look bad.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Still, I see PLENTY of less popular scratchers that i've never heard of on top loved, and it kind of works just fine to me.

calulord wrote:
Just because less popular people get front paged doesn’t mean that they're the ones that deserve it.

If they got front-paged they probably deserved it because someone liked the project and decided to love it, and more people thought that it was a good project, so they loved it as well, and if it gets top-loved it was most likely a well deserving project if that many people like it.

calulord wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
and there are also quite a few ways for new users to introduce themselves and gain popularity, even though Scratch isn't really about that.
The loving/remixing row isn’t just to give some people popularity that deserve it. It’s to put the spotlight on great projects.

That's kind of what I was saying. It's just that a person isn't going to get top loved right away, and it takes time to make a good quality project. There are also ways to advertise a project to get more people to see it. You can share it with friends or use the forums, or put them in studios. As you said, top loved/remixxed is for great projects, and there are STILL GREAT PROJECTS in the top loved.

This isn't meant to insult you or anything, I just get bugged sometimes when people misspell things, so I corrected two errors in one of the quotes. Just saying.

Just your casual Eddhead passing by~

calulord

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
I have put quite a bit of effort into some of my projects. I have nearly 500 followers and still only average maybe 10 loves at most on a project, so I have a lot of ghost followers. If your suggestion was in action, let's say I made this really good project, and more people love it and follow me, which would give me an even less chance of being on the front page (if I wanted to), since most of my followers don't even look at my projects besides those few new ones.
calulord wrote:
Becuase people are the least biased and most objective judges of themselves. And effort definitely equals quality, it totally isn’t possible to put a lot of effort into a piece of garbage
I never said I liked my projects if anything I hate them more than everyone else because they ARE mine. But Effort normally does equal somewhat quality. A project that a person spent longer on would look better than a project someone didn't put effort on, since they're getting more practice, and are getting better at what they're doing, unless the person was intentionally making it look bad.

I wasn’t saying that you might be biased to belie that you’re projects are better than they actually are. I was meant that you might be biased to believe that you put more effort into your projects than you actually did.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
Still, I see PLENTY of less popular scratchers that i've never heard of on top loved, and it kind of works just fine to me.

calulord wrote:
Just because less popular people get front paged doesn’t mean that they're the ones that deserve it.

If they got front-paged they probably deserved it because someone liked the project and decided to love it, and more people thought that it was a good project, so they loved it as well, and if it gets top-loved it was most likely a well deserving project if that many people like it.If you show a movie so bad that only %1 of people (would) like it to a billion people, you’ll still end up showing that movie to about 10,000 people who don’t like it. Obviously, this situation isn’t as extreme, but still.

Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
and there are also quite a few ways for new users to introduce themselves and gain popularity, even though Scratch isn't really about that.
calulord wrote:
The loving/remixing row isn’t just to give some people popularity that deserve it. It’s to put the spotlight on great projects.
Remix-the-Dragon wrote:
-snip-
As you said, top loved/remixxed is for great projects, and there are STILL GREAT PROJECTS in the top loved.

“Because I said so.”

Last edited by calulord (June 18, 2018 19:51:39)

Cub56

I won't support, since followers don't directly translate to views. Many people have inactive followers and most of a project's views actually don't come from followers.

I do agree that people with fewer followers need more recognition, and the way to fix that is to change the search engine to not prioritise the most popular projects.

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calulord

Bump

calulord

Again, if anybody wants to make a suggestion for dividing loves/remixes by views, go ahead.

calulord

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