One thing that I think needs fixing about the etiquette of the Suggestions forum (the forum in general too, but I see it crop up here quite a bit) is the constant unnecessary repetition of points that have already been made. A lot of the time, I see users repeating arguments that have already been made before in the thread (either by “^^^”, “support for this reason”, etc. or rewording the whole thing while keeping the gist intact) or pointing out duplicates/rejected suggestions well after somebody else has. While this is often done with the intention to help, it gives off the vibe that you didn't read the thread and it doesn't look good. I believe that it only continues the whole support/no support convention that we're trying to get rid of.

Basically, here's what I think we should be encouraging: if a point you want to put forward has already been made by a user, unless you have something to add or elaboration is absolutely vital, leave it as is. Likewise, if a suggestion's a duplicate or rejected, avoid posting about it (especially if somebody else has done it first). Just report the original post stating the violation with the link to the original topic/rejected suggestions list and wait for the Scratch Team to handle it. They will usually guide newbies in the right direction.

EDIT: This is a rough draft of what I wanted to say, but I'd be happy to elaborate on any points if anybody wants to discuss this.

You mean the Fifth Suggestion in the first post?

jokebookservice1 wrote:

You mean the Fifth Suggestion in the first post?

Everything in the first post, in fact. It seems like literally nobody here is actually taking any of it on board (including myself because I made the assumption this was a general sticky on the topic and just jumped to the last post without reading the OP, R.I.P.).

Here is a tip I have, (just in case you wanna add it

Don't Give Up
One of the stupidest things I see on Scratch is people giving up their suggestion because everyone “No Supports” it. Okay, the first thing I have to say is, there will always be someone who supports your suggestion, and second, you can always think of more suggestions, and hope they get you somewhere. Heck, I had to make 4 suggestions before I got one with 91.3% Support. The point is, maybe if you don't close your suggestion because of 5 no supports, if you keep your topic, if it has 9 million no supports, you should have at least 1 support. And as stated in this topic already, some people support for the most idiotic reasons ever. Never give up on your suggestion, you could get somewhere. And when you think it is over, there is always time to make a good suggestion, with at least 60% support.You can probably make 5 suggestions, and 4 may be nothing, but 1 will be something. Never give up. Who knows if there's a supporter waiting for you.

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

Here is a tip I have, (just in case you wanna add it

Don't Give Up
-snip- The point is, maybe if you don't close your suggestion because of 5 no supports, if you keep your topic, if it has 9 million no supports, you should have at least 1 support. And as stated in this topic already, some people support for the most idiotic reasons ever. Never give up on your suggestion, you could get somewhere. -snip

Alright, I do agree that people giving up their suggestions because of a bunch of “No Support” messages from people isn't very good.
However, I also think that the word “No Support” is a little bit overly competitive and can be perceived as rude, and an alternative could be:

Polite Person wrote:

I do not completely approve because the button might clutter up the menu bar at the top, especially for mobile devices. But I think this concept is brilliant.

sti_scratch wrote:

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

Here is a tip I have, (just in case you wanna add it

Don't Give Up
-snip- The point is, maybe if you don't close your suggestion because of 5 no supports, if you keep your topic, if it has 9 million no supports, you should have at least 1 support. And as stated in this topic already, some people support for the most idiotic reasons ever. Never give up on your suggestion, you could get somewhere. -snip

Alright, I do agree that people giving up their suggestions because of a bunch of “No Support” messages from people isn't very good.
However, I also think that the word “No Support” is a little bit overly competitive and can be perceived as rude, and an alternative could be:

Polite Person wrote:

I do not completely approve because the button might clutter up the menu bar at the top, especially for mobile devices. But I think this concept is brilliant.

The word “No Support” isn't a bad thing, it just means you don't think that the suggestion is good for Scratch.

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

sti_scratch wrote:

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

Here is a tip I have, (just in case you wanna add it

Don't Give Up
-snip- The point is, maybe if you don't close your suggestion because of 5 no supports, if you keep your topic, if it has 9 million no supports, you should have at least 1 support. And as stated in this topic already, some people support for the most idiotic reasons ever. Never give up on your suggestion, you could get somewhere. -snip

Alright, I do agree that people giving up their suggestions because of a bunch of “No Support” messages from people isn't very good.
However, I also think that the word “No Support” is a little bit overly competitive and can be perceived as rude, and an alternative could be:

Polite Person wrote:

I do not completely approve because the button might clutter up the menu bar at the top, especially for mobile devices. But I think this concept is brilliant.

The word “No Support” isn't a bad thing, it just means you don't think that the suggestion is good for Scratch.

Sometimes people can perceive it as if the person gives no support at all and there is nothing good about the suggestion. (Everything has good things and bad things, someone saying there are no good things may not have thought about the idea long enough)

-Sti

sti_scratch wrote:

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

sti_scratch wrote:

TheAdriCoolManDude wrote:

Here is a tip I have, (just in case you wanna add it

Don't Give Up
-snip- The point is, maybe if you don't close your suggestion because of 5 no supports, if you keep your topic, if it has 9 million no supports, you should have at least 1 support. And as stated in this topic already, some people support for the most idiotic reasons ever. Never give up on your suggestion, you could get somewhere. -snip

Alright, I do agree that people giving up their suggestions because of a bunch of “No Support” messages from people isn't very good.
However, I also think that the word “No Support” is a little bit overly competitive and can be perceived as rude, and an alternative could be:

Polite Person wrote:

I do not completely approve because the button might clutter up the menu bar at the top, especially for mobile devices. But I think this concept is brilliant.

The word “No Support” isn't a bad thing, it just means you don't think that the suggestion is good for Scratch.

Sometimes people can perceive it as if the person gives no support at all and there is nothing good about the suggestion. (Everything has good things and bad things, someone saying there are no good things may not have thought about the idea long enough)

-Sti

They should understand it is an opinion of your suggestion. Some people use “Weak Support” to stop any ambiguity.

Veraxaii wrote:

Great, except…

My first suggestion is that you all give up on this whole support/no support convention, because it is not helping anything and ultimately downgrading the quality of replies across the forum.

Saying simply “support” or “no support” is adding nothing to the discussion, it is doing nothing to help improve the suggestion.

It actually adds a lot, so I don't know where you've got this from. But I guess some people want constant, unnecessary debates. Not everyone can be peaceful.
Saying ‘support’ means that you completely agree with the idea.
Saying ‘no support’ means that you completely disagree with the idea.
You shouldn't have to argue to have an opinion.

Your opinion no longer has value if you don't defend it and is flawed/disproved by facts. Many suggestions deserve discussion and don't get any, and even the ST has agreed saying that a discussion helps them optimize updates and have better opinions from everyone.

If nobody is allowed to agree with the suggestion, but instead are forced to say that it's not good enough, like you want everyone to, then the Scratch Team would see all of the suggestions getting loads of hate from others and decide to not implement them to the site, when really, most people do want them on the site, but want to follow your advice so they can't show that they support the idea. Sometimes people think that someone's suggestion doesn't need to be improved. Why should they lie and say that they think it does? If anything, saying ‘support’ is UPgrading the quality of replies. It doesn't force people to have unnecessary arguments with an idea they agree with.

Just because you support a suggestion does not mean it cannot be improved. Someone saying ‘support’ has less value than a ‘support, I wonder if you could do this’. How does a word reply improve quality? One word is minimal and has no quality. Is an argument unnecessary if it improves the well-being of the group?

As for ‘no support’, THAT'S when you should say ideas for the suggestion to be improved.
But why do that when you fully agree to a suggestion?
What you want happening means that nobody will be able to support a suggestion, but instead everyone is forced to disagree with it.
That's the exact opposite of what this sub forum was made for. Freedom to express opinion. Just because you want everyone to hate on every suggestion doesn't mean we will.

No where does he say people should blindly support a suggestion. Please don't use strawman fallacies. It causes unnecessary arguments that you yourself seem to be very against.
This forum does not fall under the freedom to express opinion. Just the freedom to share your thoughts on suggestions or give your thoughts on a suggestion. Two different things.

and the goal has turned to getting as many supporters as possible

That's a helpful way for the Scratch team to know which suggestions are popular and will be most beneficial to the site.

And the forums makes up a minority of the Scratch website. ST want suggestions with as much input as possible not some ‘Support’ spammed idea.

Virtually no discussion happens on the topic because nobody cares about argument

Clearly never looked at any forum post before.

Seriously don't drop as low as an Ad Hominem. Stick to the argument not the user.

Also, you expect kids to act like adults. Scratch mainly caters to kids. You can't possibly argue otherwise. You can't expect 6-13 year olds to behave like adults.

A majority are teenagers, and either way, you don't have to argue to discuss a change.

People are picking out the smallest reason to down a suggestion, or just downing a suggestion simply because they don't understand it.

You said that Scratch reads constructive comments, and then you say that all that counts is the voting. Please make up your mind.
Also, if you can't explain a suggestion, people tend to think low of it. Psychology. People trust things that are detailed more than things that aren't. People who believe that the world is flat believe so because there's a surprising amount of detail for that side and they get blinded by that amount of detail, no matter how obviously stupid it all is.

He was saying people only care for voting and that constructive comments are far more effective?
You're missing a load of evidence. It also appears most people support things that require little thought and have explanations they want to hear, not because of detail. Flat Earther's Beliefs, Decisionmaking of People.

Furthermore, I find there is a very high level of negativity towards suggestions. The bad points are always picked out, and from there things just go downhill.

That's exactly what you said that everyone should do in the first suggestion you gave! You wanted everyone to think negatively of other peoples' suggestions. And now you're moaning about it!

No he didn't. He said people weren't adding enough to discussion.

Don't simply quote somebody, or do ^^^, or “As per this”, or any other alias you can find. It is just copying what the person before said before, and saying the same thing twice isn't going to help the discussion nor the idea.

So you don't want other reviewers to agree with each other either..

Seriously? Spam is against the rules. “^^^” or “As per this” is not constructive at all and just spamming a thread.

3. Someone who isn't using one of these Suggestions

Inform them of this sticky, and after being constructive and ‘warning’ them, add to discussion

You have such a high ego you want everyone to follow your idea of a good Scratcher, though it's so easy to argue against the suggestions you gave..

Complaining about their ego? “it's so easy to argue against the suggestions you gave”. Stop contradicting yourself and stop using Ad Hominems, attacking the user and not the argument is how you get Alerts/Banned.

It gets very annoying to see extremely short suggestion posts with no clarification or detail whatsoever. Like in this one, the user was requesting to allow free-chat rooms.

Anonymous wrote:

Like, all the scratch team needs to do is ban swear words from variables and there you go.

Instead of moaning due to lack of detail, what about telling them how they could make it constructive? It clearly shows to me (though it may not be true) that you, yourself, have no idea how to expand it. So you're being a hypocrite, if that's the case.

Another petty Ad Hominem mixed with your argument. If you want anyone to take you seriously you should consider the argument and not the user.
And he's informing everyone so people clarify their suggestions so people don't always have to. Making more genuine suggestions, is that an issue?

Users that presume ‘competition is unhealthy’, or just see it as ‘bad’.

If you want to keep your Scratch account, then it is unhealthy. I know that from experience.

Don't judge a book by its cover. Read the whole thing.

Stop pampering the kids on the site. I understand certain things must be hidden, but it's unfair to hide the younger generation from the real world

Like leaders, like population.

Are you saying everyone is a leader? You need to elaborate instead of making confusing one-liners.

When making any post (not just in suggestions), take the time to ensure it has proper spelling and grammar. Text talking is confusing, unconstructive and frankly unprofessional.

This.. Is.. A… Kid's… Site… (And the internet)
This… Is… Not… A… CV…
What's this so hard for soooooo many people to understand?

ok iguess this iz reel neet 4 u to reed

“Dear everyone who says Scratch isn't about popularity”

But Scratch really isn't about popularity. It's about creating games and helping the community.

I agree, and rather, about programming.

Congratulations on making one of the most cliche and overused arguments on this website.

So, with that logic, the moon doesn't exist because everyone thinks it does. Alright then.

No. That's not the same logic. Ironically, you use a faulty analogy.

The moon is a scientifically proven and supported idea.
The argument in question is an opinion, and not supported by a large amount of facts, math, or science.

Nobody tell him/her that this isn't the way to make urls…

I wanted to add a suggestion, so here it is:

I think for 3.0 they should allow you to insert sprites into a costume, like what you could do in 2.0!

less people could get banned if they added a block user funcion

I really hope that Scratch can change the pattern with the mouse pointer later. I hope someone will support it.My browser / operating system: Windows 7, Chrome 63.0.3239.26, Flash 27.0 (release 0)

I am in the middle of a project and Scratch fails to save it because I reached the Data limit only because I used a big sound effect with a length of 127 Seconds… I suggest the Scratch team should change the data limit back to 20mb.

repeat until <(Data Size) = [20mb]>
say [Please change the Data Limit] for (5) secs
end

Okay so 1st suggestion would make the suggestions completely empty.
But then there's that 7th suggestion..
Is that against minimodding? Because if so, that should definitely be a thing.

Mr_PenguinAlex wrote:

Okay so 1st suggestion would make the suggestions completely empty.
But then there's that 7th suggestion..
Is that against minimodding? Because if so, that should definitely be a thing.

The 7th suggestion is there to recognize how people treated this document as a set of rules to enforce when in reality it's just a bunch of constructive criticisms.
The 1st one is simply asking for people to just express their own original ideas and if they like a suggestion to put more effort than just “support”

Support, especially for 7th suggestion.