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- SonicFanX123_321
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
(#3)also they are DEFINITELY adding features to scratch 3, see new studio pages controversy and the new forum.The normal Scratch user would find it much easier to modify and extend Scratch as they (and I) did in its earlier years, and it would naturally provide a more advanced programming language for older users without splitting the community. Scratch 1.x gave the whole Scratch community access and a gradual introduction to a world of live programming that newer versions simply can't, but the Scratch Team could fix this. How would this affect the normal Scratch user, and not just the team who develops it?
Plus, they certainly have the funding and manpower now, and it's not like they're still adding features to Scratch 3.
unless you mean the editor, which you could have made clearer in your original post.
- sonic__fan
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Huh, support! A version of Scratch that's easier to code for and easier to mod!
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- 54387a
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Please don't blockspam. Instead, you could say support/no support with reasoning or say something that can help this topic be discussed more.when green flag clicked
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block name [ stopp v]
end
when I start as a clone
ask [message] and wait
say (answer ::sensing)
Last edited by 54387a (April 6, 2023 15:24:33)
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- GIitchInTheMatrix
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Bump
- rdococ
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.There are Smalltalk dialects implemented with HTML5 + Javascript
Certainly an interesting thought. I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though
There's GP Blocks, a block-based programming language developed in itself. One of the original developers behind Scratch (John Maloney) as well as Jens of Snap! fame were involved, but it seems to be abandoned. Real shame; it would have been awesome as a future version of Scratch! There's a community edition, but I don't know that they're doing much with it.
- Crispydogs101
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Oh I did not know that lol.Squeak was an implementation of Smalltalk. I don't think scratch 4.0 is coming in smalltalk (might be also called sqeak) since 4.0 is not announced yet. But if it does then that would be cool since smalltalk can do better things like live blocks and features. So might be support.
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- NanoRook
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.
Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.
Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.
I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though
This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.
I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?
- Basilikos
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.
Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.
Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.
I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though
This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.
I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?
sorry for bad english
- NanoRook
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.
Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.
Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.
I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though
This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.
I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?
The Scratch Editor isn't a website.
- gilbert_given_189
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
This. This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.
I know Python does it a little with the indent-dedent system, but everything on Smalltalk feels unorthodox and esoteric. I'm fortunate enough to at least know little concepts of the syntax from venturing on the esolanging world (and the fact that most of Squeak self-documents itself), making the learning process a bit easy, but imagine if you're just starting out JavaScript, Lua, or God forbid Scratch. To them, Smalltalk feels back to front, with programming aspects they don't know why it works, but is necessary for reasons unknown to them.
You put your “actions” after the values, contrary to what you have learned on your usual programming class. You can't just define a variable on a line, you have to delimit some variables on vertical lines after the function name for some reason. What you may see as code blocks are actually functions, yet you don't know them because you're accustomed to how functions work on other C-style proglangs. It's a good way to introduce FP, yes, but for them all of these “bizarre” syntax quirks made the Smalltalk language virtually inaccessible to people that came from other, more popular proglangs. On this perspective, Smalltalk-based Scratch would be as hard, if not harder to mod than later version of Scratch, even though technically it's not.
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- ajskateboarder
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Lua is easy to sandbox (which is one of it's nicest features). There are Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.browser implementations and ways to run it on the backend
Last edited by ajskateboarder (May 17, 2023 12:16:24)
- PaperMarioFan2022
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
I have a feeling by the time HTML gets shut down scratch will have been discontinued for a while, given most of the internet is built off of HTMLThanks for bumping Say it with me everyone!
Scratch 4 will never come out!
the only reason scratch 3 came out was because of the death of flash, so unless HTML 5 gets discontinued, scratch will not reach 4.0, there will be other updates but a new update as big as 3.0/new version has not even been in development, the closest thing to an update we are probably going to get is the currently in development dark mode and high contrast blocks, other than that there are currently no other planned features other than those in scratch lab (that may never even be implemented at all! Although I hope we get the text one, making a text engine is really time consuming if you want centering)
I don't expect Scratch 4 to come out for a while, but if Scratch lives long enough then the technologies it's using are bound to get discontinued. This is something for the Scratch Team to consider when that happens.
It is now, after Adobe Flash has died out.
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- creeperyeettt
- Scratcher
500+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done
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potassium car: https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/842403167/ (deltarune reference???)
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- GIitchInTheMatrix
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done
I don't expect Scratch 4 to come out for a while, but if Scratch lives long enough then the technologies it's using are bound to get discontinued. This is something for the Scratch Team to consider when that happens.
- ajskateboarder
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Did you read the OP scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done
- SonicFanX123_321
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
scratch 1.4 gave way to scratch 2.0, which was based on flash to provide online editor.
I doubt there's something like a “live environment”; squeak is based offline (.changes and .image files).
I doubt there's something like a “live environment”; squeak is based offline (.changes and .image files).
- PaperMarioFan2022
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
I’m not a real programmer, but I know for sure Scratch 4.0 won’t be released until HTML 5 is discontinued. But until then, this would pretty useful and also creative, especially if advanced coders like to mod Scratch.
Support! I find this very interesting and also useful to a programming language (yes, Scratch is a programming language obviously).
Support! I find this very interesting and also useful to a programming language (yes, Scratch is a programming language obviously).
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- GIitchInTheMatrix
- Scratcher
1000+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
The ST began 3.0 before Adobe even announced Flash was to be depricated. I’m not a real programmer, but I know for sure Scratch 4.0 won’t be released until HTML 5 is discontinued.
- o97doge
- Scratcher
500+ posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Bump and support. Easier to create modifications. Newspeak looks interesting as a choice, even though I haven't used it and it isn't Smalltalk, though it does take some elements from it.
Last edited by o97doge (Oct. 29, 2023 05:03:46)
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First it was the purple people were complaining about, then the AI art, now forumers are complaining about slang made up by little kids?!
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(#7)Is that the case though? Is it really? Or is it just a figment of your imagination? What if scratch never existed, and you’re just hallucinating? All of these people you’ve met, they might not be anything more than a figment of your imagination? And now that you know this, you have to ask yourself the question: is scratch real? Are you truly on an online platform named scratch? Or are you dreaming, seeing this so-called “programming for kids platform” in a completely different way from everybody else? How can you fully be sure you’re not hallucinating? How can you be so sure that there is a real thing called scratch?This is Scratch, not Snap. I think it’s snap!.
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- HataDad
- Scratcher
19 posts
Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)
Smalltalk has some issues like being a 5 level object oriented language.
How about Scala instead? hehe
How about Scala instead? hehe
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