OK, Im not active in Suggestions but I need to comment on this.


Sure, Cloud Data is a little buggy. But it doesn't affect projects significantly, it doesn't affect projects that don' use them at all (which is a lot) and most of the projects I see using Cloud Variables use them so minorly it's barely even affecting it.

The only projects that even get affected by the cloud's inconsistency are Online Multiplayer Games, which are actually the minority in terms of Cloud Variables.

It simply doesn't make any sense to remove them- the minuses outweigh the plusses significantly.
There'd be monstrous outrage, countless projects would remain unplayable or at the very least have a function that doesn't work, and there's just no reason to remove a feature for being broken that works perfectly fine most of the time.


I don't even use Cloud Variables. But they pose basically no problem, so, at least at the moment, there's 0 reason to remove them.

And I don't even agree that they're that buggy. Outside of online play there's really no issue with them, at least none that I personally have encountered.

This is what codubee, a scratch team member, said about this:

We may have to eventually redesign/restrict clouddata further, but, there are strategies we can follow the increase its scalability, however, it's always going to be vulnerable to “pollution” due to the nature of the internet and allowing anyone to write data.

Bluebatstar wrote:

OK, Im not active in Suggestions but I need to comment on this.


Sure, Cloud Data is a little buggy. But it doesn't affect projects significantly, it doesn't affect projects that don' use them at all (which is a lot) and most of the projects I see using Cloud Variables use them so minorly it's barely even affecting it.

The only projects that even get affected by the cloud's inconsistency are Online Multiplayer Games, which are actually the minority in terms of Cloud Variables.

It simply doesn't make any sense to remove them- the minuses outweigh the plusses significantly.
There'd be monstrous outrage, countless projects would remain unplayable or at the very least have a function that doesn't work, and there's just no reason to remove a feature for being broken that works perfectly fine most of the time.


I don't even use Cloud Variables. But they pose basically no problem, so, at least at the moment, there's 0 reason to remove them.

And I don't even agree that they're that buggy. Outside of online play there's really no issue with them, at least none that I personally have encountered.

maybe some of my points might convince you?

I'm just going to copypaste this conversation from @codubee's profile.

dertermenter wrote:

Do you think you may introduce a policy soon on projects that use an external scripts

dertermenter wrote:

@dertermenter Oh and nice pfp

codubee wrote:

@dertermenter I doubt it. But Scratch is open source.

dertermenter wrote:

@codubee* Ok. Just that it lags the servers I heard

codubee wrote:

@dertermenter Not really.

dertermenter wrote:

@codubee* That’s what people were saying in the forums. Ok then. Do you think you will ever just remove cloud data due to the matienence it and time it causes to maintain, and users can make dangerous projects with it?

codubee wrote:

@dertermenter Re: lagging, it can't actually lag, because whatever is in our production backend is also going to become available in the frontend in a very short timeframe.

Re: clouddata
We may have to eventually redesign/restrict clouddata further, but, there are strategies we can follow the increase its scalability, however, it's always going to be vulnerable to “pollution” due to the nature of the internet and allowing anyone to write data.

dertermenter wrote:

@codubee* Thanks for the answers, appreciate it

(src)
I'd like to call attention to the last statement made by codubee. Cloud data will probably be restricted further. This might probably be reducing the limit (probably back to 128), and/or increasing the time frame between updates (probably from 100ms to 200ms).

dhuls wrote:

I'd like to call attention to the last statement made by codubee. Cloud data will probably be restricted further. This might probably be reducing the limit (probably back to 128), and/or increasing the time frame between updates (probably from 100ms to 200ms)

That's a perfect(sort of) compromise, just implement this rather than depriving us of a feature.

No support. No support at all. This would completely destroy multiplayer games, with many scratchers (especially me) love. That could cause outrage throughout the community. Do you want outrage in the community?

dertermenter wrote:

@codubee* Ok. Just that it lags the servers I heard

codubee wrote:

@dertermenter Not really.

dertermenter wrote:

@codubee* That’s what people were saying in the forums. Ok then. Do you think you will ever just remove cloud data due to the matienence it and time it causes to maintain, and users can make dangerous projects with it?

codubee wrote:

@dertermenter Re: lagging, it can't actually lag, because whatever is in our production backend is also going to become available in the frontend in a very short timeframe.

They're planning on limiting it only for the future — not because it's lagging at the moment.

Lets look at least 10 multiplayer games, where 10 people play at a time, 100 bytes of data every 1/10th of a second.
This means one person uploads 1000 bytes a second (100 * 10)
Ten people would mean 10,000 (1000 * 10)
Ten parallel games would mean 10,000 * 10
100,000 bytes a second, 100KB of data is being uploaded every second to the cloud, just for TEN multiplayer games (there are even more, so this is underestimating)

There are 86,400 seconds in a day, which means 100 * 86,400 = 86,40,000KB = 8.64GB = every day.
8.64 * 30 = 259.2GB to the cloud every month.
So external scripts that change cloud vars to like max 30 bytes every 5 seconds is doing absolutely no harm compared to 10 multiplayer games.

Jeffalo wrote:

Bluebatstar wrote:

-snip-

maybe some of my points might convince you?

I read your points. Here's my opinion:

It requires regular maintenance from the Scratch Team, which eats away at time and resources that could go towards other projects like working on the Scratch editor or website..

Yes, you aren't wrong- but if the ST aren't affected by having to manage it, then what's the problem?
Unless working on it is actually affecting the rest of what they do, then there's no issue in that, but there's also no proof that there is an issue so the point, at least for now, won't really make a difference.

It is a safety risk, exposing users to unmoderated chat rooms, external scripts doing dangerous things and any variables simply being easily externally modified due to the nature of how it works

That is why the cloud data limits exist.
And besides, the ST are fully aware that risks are there, but there's risks with anything you can share online.
If a user looks at a shared project, there's a chance they may see very inappropriate things in said project. Does that mean we have to remove sharing projects?

It is a security risk, leaving a higher attack surface on the Scratch websites. A service with no features is a service with no vulnerabilities.

Yes but nothing like that has happened already.
If the security risk was that high, then something like that would likely have happened already, or at the very least the ST realise the risk is there.
Fair point but I disagree.

Many users don't even know it exists, due to it having to be limited to full Scratchers.

That's definitely wrong. In fact, I think it's one of the most well-known features of the website.
Chances are, with the popularity of a lot of online multiplayer games, almost ever scratcher, even new scratchers, will know it exists.
If you want proof, ‘how to get cloud variables’ is a decently common question in QaS, especially among New Scratchers.

It can't do many of the exciting things it was planned to be able to do, the way it's presented to users makes it only viable as a high score counter without lots of work going into converting digits to strings and back. Some projects even have to use compression algorithms to get around the digit limit.

Even without “many of the exciting things it was planned to be able to do”, cloud data can still do a lot.
And the way it's presented to the user is done to discourage the aforementioned safety risk of a chat room, and by the time users learn how to use it chances are they'll know what's allowed and what isn't.
As for Compression Algorithms, I don't think they're a problem unless they become common knowledge. I've never seen one nor did I know they exists, but if they become extremely widespread then they might be an issue. However, they aren't. And even if they do become common knowlegde, it might not even be an issue.


Even after reading your points (which I did do before posting my last post) my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest.

No support. Cloud variables are very useful. If you understand the limitations and how they can be used, they will be useful to you one day.

Important: New Scratchers cannot use cloud variables.

No support. Cloud variables are very useful. If you understand the limitations and how they can be used, they will be useful to you one day.

Important: New Scratchers cannot use cloud variables.

Oops, looks like I posted twice…

SuperMarioHome wrote:

Cloud variables are very useful. If you understand the limitations and how they can be used, they will be useful to you one day.

Cloud variables are unsafe, as stated in Jeffalo's post.

Reev0102 wrote:

SuperMarioHome wrote:

Cloud variables are very useful. If you understand the limitations and how they can be used, they will be useful to you one day.

Cloud variables are unsafe, as stated in Jeffalo's post.

They really aren't.
The theoretical issues about them are either not severe, haven't ever happened, or are easily moderatable/fixable, or multiple of the above.

Reev0102 wrote:

Cloud variables are unsafe, as stated in Jeffalo's post.

As far as I know, no piece of software can be 100% safe. If it was like that — this entire website is unsafe, so remove it. [/s]

Reev0102 wrote:

SuperMarioHome wrote:

Cloud variables are very useful. If you understand the limitations and how they can be used, they will be useful to you one day.

Cloud variables are unsafe, as stated in Jeffalo's post.

And neither is, well, nothing. Even Scratch itself isn't 100% safe, as that's impossible. There's probably some unfound security vulnerability just waiting to be discovered and/or exploited.

scratchusername40 wrote:

miniepicness wrote:

a warning whenever you turn it on

Obviously that warning doesn't cover the fact that cloud data breaks even when you use numbers

SonicFanX123_321 wrote:

miniepicness wrote:

Za-Chary wrote:

No support.

I agree that cloud variables are buggy sometimes, but there's an easy solution. If you don't want to use cloud data, then don't make any cloud variables.

It's kinda mean to give a new scratcher a broken feature when they expect a functional one.

also, isnt cloud data only for scratchers, and the scratch team?

someone can have the rank of Scratcher and still be new to the site

Jeffalo wrote:

maybe some of my points might convince you?

please stop trying to argue that cloud data should be removed entirely. It's a lot more reasonable to just stop people from making new cloud variables, instead of breaking old games by removing all of it.

miniepicness wrote:

Jeffalo wrote:

maybe some of my points might convince you?

please stop trying to argue that cloud data should be removed entirely. It's a lot more reasonable to just stop people from making new cloud variables, instead of breaking old games by removing all of it.

That means these suggestions are different and it shouldn’t have been merged…

Can you at least link that post in the OP for removing cloud data?

miniepicness wrote:

Jeffalo wrote:

maybe some of my points might convince you?

please stop trying to argue that cloud data should be removed entirely. It's a lot more reasonable to just stop people from making new cloud variables, instead of breaking old games by removing all of it.

i slightly touched on that here, but i see what you mean.

No support, lots of cool new projects are based on these variables, like griffpatch's projects. Most of those would break instantly, leaving awesome projects no longer working. Also, stuff like multiplayer games wouldn't be possible to create!

when green flag clicked
if <Kumquats try to invade a siggy> then
broadcast [Make Siggy Guards]
end

when I receive [Make Siggy Guards]
forever
summon (100) siggy guards
end

dertermenter wrote:

miniepicness wrote:

Jeffalo wrote:

maybe some of my points might convince you?

please stop trying to argue that cloud data should be removed entirely. It's a lot more reasonable to just stop people from making new cloud variables, instead of breaking old games by removing all of it.

That means these suggestions are different and it shouldn’t have been merged…

Can you at least link that post in the OP for removing cloud data?

I've now edited the main post to fit the two topics a bit better - thanks!