Discuss Scratch

Scratchifier
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



What about the comment count?

Can you at least make that one viewable somehow? Please… it doesn't harm anything. There have not been competitions about it and I doubt there will be.
Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Except for the comment count - which isn't viewable no matter what. :S

Oh, btw you have 4379 profile comments.








































900miles
Scratcher
39 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!
Ooh, that sounds fun! Any hints as to when this is coming out?
Scratchifier
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Oh, and what are your opinions on these arguments?

By theonlygusti:

I hate the new addition. I mean, the thought is good, but it's stupid.

I loved looking at numbers. I don't judge people on how many followers they have, or how many people they are following, I just find it interesting.

Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.

It's horrible.

By Superdoggy:

Dear Scratch Team,
Please do not take this message personally. I have tried to get my point across by posting my honest opinion on this issue. I am sorry for the fact that it is slightly “undiplomatic”, but I did not want to sugarcoat the issue and miss the point of the problem entirely. I can edit any part of this post that you find offensive. Thank you for reading.

This update is bad for many reasons:

1. I've spent hours and hours for 2 years and 7 months on making high quality projects and many friends. Are you saying that I don't deserve to see how many comments I've gotten, or how many friends I have at a glance? You might as well make this a 100% socialist Scratch and remove the love-its and favorites too. And while you're at it you could get rid of the front page, and you could get rid of the views, and then you could make each page only load one comment at a time, just so that others wouldn't feel sad when they saw a project with more comments then theirs…

No. I mean no, seriously. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but really? I've earned every last follower fair and square. If anybody thinks otherwise they can unfollow me now. Because if I can't even see how many comments my projects have, I think I'll quit and bring my programming talents elsewhere. At some point you just have to accept the fact that it doesn't have to be equal.

2. If it really is all about programming, why do you heed the complaints of Scratchers who badger you about Add Everything studios, or “Unfairness”. Like seriously, does it really matter if your project is in a few studios? So you removed the manager and project count from studios. Great, now if I ever want to see how many projects I have in one of my perfectly legitimate studios, I have to count them by hand! That's a huge waste of time! Is Scratch slowly being overtaken by a Scratch Team who regulates everything a user does and says?

3. It doesn't even do anything. Follow for follows will still continue. In fact, I bet that if I offered free F4Fs on this thread, I'd get lots of takers. Besides, if the number doesn't matter, who cares if somebody gets a few non-legitimate follows? Spam isn't destructive or anything, just annoying. That's why I allow it on my profile, just to show that it isn't that bad. In fact, anybody that is reading this thread, FEEL FREE TO SPAM ALL YOU WANT ON MY PROFILE. (Within reason, of course.) I will look at anything you post, if I can.

————————————————————————————-A very, very, very disappointed and upset Superdoggy.

By TheGeneraless:

I too am quite upset about this ‘update’. While I do understand that you hope to discourage f4f comments, the truth of the matter is this: People will NEVER stop asking the people they admire/like to follow them, until they do. It doesn't matter how many comments, followers or whatnot they have–f4f will not stop with the restriction of comment/follower/following visibility.

I am proud of how many comments and followers I have gained. I am proud of how many I am following. Taking the ability to see these is downright painful for me and, undoubtedly, for nearly every other Scratcher who RPs a lot or keeps track of important documents/projects/etc. with comment numbers. I worked hard to see my followers rise. People worked hard to see my following count rise. I have comments because we both worked hard.

This update, to me, seems like the restriction of freedom. Yes, you want to help. But really, is this the best way to do it? Maybe you should just put in an ‘ignore user’ button instead, like we used to have so long ago. Things definitely need to go back to the way they used to be, or people are going to start Scratch-rioting. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

I do not think that the number of followers a person has constitutes to how good of a Scratcher they are, but if they earned them, they should be able to show it. I know that I appreciate each and every one of my followers, and I appreciate every person I follow, regardless of how many people are following them/how many projects they have created. The number feels like an achievement, and I am 100% sure this view is shared by many of my fellow Scratchers.

Taking away a right is not an update.

–TG

So, these arguments, whether early on, or lately posted, all deserve a direct response from the Scratch Team, right? These people put time and effort to put together their posts because of this update. The Scratch Team has just sort of put these in the same group as the not-as-good arguments and written a response to those…

Take a try at methodically countering these arguments. It's harder than it might look.

-Scratchifier-
Zro716
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!
so do you want us to start making suggestions for this or are you implying there's more on the way?

As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.
900miles
Scratcher
39 posts

Updates to Following and Followers


I'm not Speakvisually, but here are my counter-arguments.

Scratchifier wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Oh, and what are your opinions on these arguments?

By theonlygusti:

I hate the new addition. I mean, the thought is good, but it's stupid.

I loved looking at numbers. I don't judge people on how many followers they have, or how many people they are following, I just find it interesting.

Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.

It's horrible.


This is based on the assumption that they're completely removing the numbers, which they're not.

By Superdoggy:

Dear Scratch Team,
Please do not take this message personally. I have tried to get my point across by posting my honest opinion on this issue. I am sorry for the fact that it is slightly “undiplomatic”, but I did not want to sugarcoat the issue and miss the point of the problem entirely. I can edit any part of this post that you find offensive. Thank you for reading.

This update is bad for many reasons:

1. I've spent hours and hours for 2 years and 7 months on making high quality projects and many friends. Are you saying that I don't deserve to see how many comments I've gotten, or how many friends I have at a glance? You might as well make this a 100% socialist Scratch and remove the love-its and favorites too. And while you're at it you could get rid of the front page, and you could get rid of the views, and then you could make each page only load one comment at a time, just so that others wouldn't feel sad when they saw a project with more comments then theirs…

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too.

No. I mean no, seriously. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but really? I've earned every last follower fair and square. If anybody thinks otherwise they can unfollow me now. Because if I can't even see how many comments my projects have, I think I'll quit and bring my programming talents elsewhere. At some point you just have to accept the fact that it doesn't have to be equal.

2. If it really is all about programming, why do you heed the complaints of Scratchers who badger you about Add Everything studios, or “Unfairness”. Like seriously, does it really matter if your project is in a few studios? So you removed the manager and project count from studios. Great, now if I ever want to see how many projects I have in one of my perfectly legitimate studios, I have to count them by hand! That's a huge waste of time! Is Scratch slowly being overtaken by a Scratch Team who regulates everything a user does and says?

Unrelated.

3. It doesn't even do anything. Follow for follows will still continue. In fact, I bet that if I offered free F4Fs on this thread, I'd get lots of takers. Besides, if the number doesn't matter, who cares if somebody gets a few non-legitimate follows? Spam isn't destructive or anything, just annoying. That's why I allow it on my profile, just to show that it isn't that bad. In fact, anybody that is reading this thread, FEEL FREE TO SPAM ALL YOU WANT ON MY PROFILE. (Within reason, of course.) I will look at anything you post, if I can.

————————————————————————————-A very, very, very disappointed and upset Superdoggy.

You can't really say that F4Fs will still continue, but I don't even know if that's the reason ST updated, anyways.

By TheGeneraless:

I too am quite upset about this ‘update’. While I do understand that you hope to discourage f4f comments, the truth of the matter is this: People will NEVER stop asking the people they admire/like to follow them, until they do. It doesn't matter how many comments, followers or whatnot they have–f4f will not stop with the restriction of comment/follower/following visibility.

Same as above.

I am proud of how many comments and followers I have gained. I am proud of how many I am following. Taking the ability to see these is downright painful for me and, undoubtedly, for nearly every other Scratcher who RPs a lot or keeps track of important documents/projects/etc. with comment numbers. I worked hard to see my followers rise. People worked hard to see my following count rise. I have comments because we both worked hard.

Also based on the idea that followers/following have been completely removed. Comment numbers, well, I guess that's justified.

This update, to me, seems like the restriction of freedom. Yes, you want to help. But really, is this the best way to do it? Maybe you should just put in an ‘ignore user’ button instead, like we used to have so long ago. Things definitely need to go back to the way they used to be, or people are going to start Scratch-rioting. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

I do not think that the number of followers a person has constitutes to how good of a Scratcher they are, but if they earned them, they should be able to show it. I know that I appreciate each and every one of my followers, and I appreciate every person I follow, regardless of how many people are following them/how many projects they have created. The number feels like an achievement, and I am 100% sure this view is shared by many of my fellow Scratchers.

Same as above

Taking away a right is not an update.

–TG

So, these arguments, whether early on, or lately posted, all deserve a direct response from the Scratch Team, right? These people put time and effort to put together their posts because of this update. The Scratch Team has just sort of put these in the same group as the not-as-good arguments and written a response to those…

Take a try at methodically countering these arguments. It's harder than it might look.

Done.

-Scratchifier-
Unlocked
Scratcher
100+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

900miles wrote:

I'm not Speakvisually, but here are my counter-arguments.

Scratchifier wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Oh, and what are your opinions on these arguments?

By theonlygusti:

I hate the new addition. I mean, the thought is good, but it's stupid.

I loved looking at numbers. I don't judge people on how many followers they have, or how many people they are following, I just find it interesting.

Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.

It's horrible.


This is based on the assumption that they're completely removing the numbers, which they're not.

By Superdoggy:

Dear Scratch Team,
Please do not take this message personally. I have tried to get my point across by posting my honest opinion on this issue. I am sorry for the fact that it is slightly “undiplomatic”, but I did not want to sugarcoat the issue and miss the point of the problem entirely. I can edit any part of this post that you find offensive. Thank you for reading.

This update is bad for many reasons:

1. I've spent hours and hours for 2 years and 7 months on making high quality projects and many friends. Are you saying that I don't deserve to see how many comments I've gotten, or how many friends I have at a glance? You might as well make this a 100% socialist Scratch and remove the love-its and favorites too. And while you're at it you could get rid of the front page, and you could get rid of the views, and then you could make each page only load one comment at a time, just so that others wouldn't feel sad when they saw a project with more comments then theirs…

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too.

No. I mean no, seriously. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but really? I've earned every last follower fair and square. If anybody thinks otherwise they can unfollow me now. Because if I can't even see how many comments my projects have, I think I'll quit and bring my programming talents elsewhere. At some point you just have to accept the fact that it doesn't have to be equal.

2. If it really is all about programming, why do you heed the complaints of Scratchers who badger you about Add Everything studios, or “Unfairness”. Like seriously, does it really matter if your project is in a few studios? So you removed the manager and project count from studios. Great, now if I ever want to see how many projects I have in one of my perfectly legitimate studios, I have to count them by hand! That's a huge waste of time! Is Scratch slowly being overtaken by a Scratch Team who regulates everything a user does and says?

Unrelated.

3. It doesn't even do anything. Follow for follows will still continue. In fact, I bet that if I offered free F4Fs on this thread, I'd get lots of takers. Besides, if the number doesn't matter, who cares if somebody gets a few non-legitimate follows? Spam isn't destructive or anything, just annoying. That's why I allow it on my profile, just to show that it isn't that bad. In fact, anybody that is reading this thread, FEEL FREE TO SPAM ALL YOU WANT ON MY PROFILE. (Within reason, of course.) I will look at anything you post, if I can.

————————————————————————————-A very, very, very disappointed and upset Superdoggy.

You can't really say that F4Fs will still continue, but I don't even know if that's the reason ST updated, anyways.

By TheGeneraless:

I too am quite upset about this ‘update’. While I do understand that you hope to discourage f4f comments, the truth of the matter is this: People will NEVER stop asking the people they admire/like to follow them, until they do. It doesn't matter how many comments, followers or whatnot they have–f4f will not stop with the restriction of comment/follower/following visibility.

Same as above.

I am proud of how many comments and followers I have gained. I am proud of how many I am following. Taking the ability to see these is downright painful for me and, undoubtedly, for nearly every other Scratcher who RPs a lot or keeps track of important documents/projects/etc. with comment numbers. I worked hard to see my followers rise. People worked hard to see my following count rise. I have comments because we both worked hard.

Also based on the idea that followers/following have been completely removed. Comment numbers, well, I guess that's justified.

This update, to me, seems like the restriction of freedom. Yes, you want to help. But really, is this the best way to do it? Maybe you should just put in an ‘ignore user’ button instead, like we used to have so long ago. Things definitely need to go back to the way they used to be, or people are going to start Scratch-rioting. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

I do not think that the number of followers a person has constitutes to how good of a Scratcher they are, but if they earned them, they should be able to show it. I know that I appreciate each and every one of my followers, and I appreciate every person I follow, regardless of how many people are following them/how many projects they have created. The number feels like an achievement, and I am 100% sure this view is shared by many of my fellow Scratchers.

Same as above

Taking away a right is not an update.

–TG

So, these arguments, whether early on, or lately posted, all deserve a direct response from the Scratch Team, right? These people put time and effort to put together their posts because of this update. The Scratch Team has just sort of put these in the same group as the not-as-good arguments and written a response to those…

Take a try at methodically countering these arguments. It's harder than it might look.

Done.

-Scratchifier-
Yeah! :ninjasmiley:


No ninja smiley…
Shiverberry
Scratcher
100+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Unlocked wrote:

Scratchifier wrote:

900miles wrote:

So now we get back on topic and post our objective, well-reasoned arguments, right?


right?

Yah the numbers being removed was unfair becuz potato.

Becuz potato, French fry.

See why itz so unfair?

Wah! I mad.

I've sort of already covered everything with all of my previous posts… at least everything that I can think of right now. :P

I think that the next best course of action would be to persuade for the Scratch Team to read every single post on each page in order, close the topic, and make a final decision. Because I'm really getting tired of putting together arguments and then getting ignored for several days, just to have one tiny post replied to.
You're ignored because the scratch team doesn't think that your arguments are very good.
Which is why we're making better ones.

~Shiverberry~ <3

Save time ~ don't think twice.

Bring Back Awesome Face (BBAF): http://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/topic/67490/?page=1#post-572862
Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

900miles wrote:

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too.
Slippery Slope? Bla bla bla. The person who wrote that was a agenda-pusher. You simply CANNOT use such bias as “pure fact” in these “honest debates” that everybody keeps mentioning.

Yet again, I see you quoting some annoying site in an attempt to discredit everybody's argument against you. As far as I'm concerned, you're doing that because you don't think you have a good enough argument supporting the update that you want to bash the ones against it.

Besides, so called “slippery slope” arguments are the best kind when you have somebody intelligent behind them. While it may not be accurate, and the events mentioned might not occur, they help put things in perspective. Here, I'll just make up my own “logical fallacy” right now.

A Piece of the Pie is Part of the Whole

When one uses exaggerated claims in a debate, the common response is to dismiss all of it as nonsense. But this is a common logical fallacy itself; just because something is exaggerated doesn't mean that it has no truth. This clouds honest debate, and should never occur.

Example: John said: “The world is billions of years old! What a lot of work on nature's part to make such a beautiful world!” Even though the claim was exaggerated, there was still truth in the statement, as Bill pointed out. “Yes, it was a lot of work, it was created in 7 days by God, who in fact worked very hard!”


There. I made my own, and I put my own biased opinion example. Which is in fact true. I mean uh…

Now could you possibly imagine using this in a debate?








































Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Superdoggy wrote:

900miles wrote:

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too.
Slippery Slope? Bla bla bla. The person who wrote that was a agenda-pusher. You simply CANNOT use such bias as “pure fact” in these “honest debates” that everybody keeps mentioning.

Yet again, I see you quoting some annoying site in an attempt to discredit everybody's argument against you. As far as I'm concerned, you're doing that because you don't think you have a good enough argument supporting the update that you want to bash the ones against it.

Besides, so called “slippery slope” arguments are the best kind when you have somebody intelligent behind them. While it may not be accurate, and the events mentioned might not occur, they help put things in perspective. Here, I'll just make up my own “logical fallacy” right now.

A Piece of the Pie is Part of the Whole

When one uses exaggerated claims in a debate, the common response is to dismiss all of it as nonsense. But this is a common logical fallacy itself; just because something is exaggerated doesn't mean that it has no truth. This clouds honest debate, and should never occur.

Example: John said: “The world is billions of years old! What a lot of work on nature's part to make such a beautiful world!” Even though the claim was exaggerated, there was still truth in the statement, as Bill pointed out. “Yes, it was a lot of work, it was created in 7 days by God, who in fact worked very hard!”


There. I made my own, and I put my own biased opinion example. Which is in fact true. I mean uh…

Now could you possibly imagine using this in a debate?

+1! Great post, Superdoggy! xD








































Scratchifier
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

900miles wrote:

I'm not Speakvisually, but here are my counter-arguments.

Scratchifier wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Oh, and what are your opinions on these arguments?

By theonlygusti:

I hate the new addition. I mean, the thought is good, but it's stupid.

I loved looking at numbers. I don't judge people on how many followers they have, or how many people they are following, I just find it interesting.

Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.

It's horrible.


This is based on the assumption that they're completely removing the numbers, which they're not. No, it isn't. “Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.”

By Superdoggy:

Dear Scratch Team,
Please do not take this message personally. I have tried to get my point across by posting my honest opinion on this issue. I am sorry for the fact that it is slightly “undiplomatic”, but I did not want to sugarcoat the issue and miss the point of the problem entirely. I can edit any part of this post that you find offensive. Thank you for reading.

This update is bad for many reasons:

1. I've spent hours and hours for 2 years and 7 months on making high quality projects and many friends. Are you saying that I don't deserve to see how many comments I've gotten, or how many friends I have at a glance? You might as well make this a 100% socialist Scratch and remove the love-its and favorites too. And while you're at it you could get rid of the front page, and you could get rid of the views, and then you could make each page only load one comment at a time, just so that others wouldn't feel sad when they saw a project with more comments then theirs…

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too. Dumping me at a website with so-called logical fallacies is NOT going to cut it. The point was not to discredit all of the arguments and say “not good enough, I shouldn't have to bother with a real response.”

No. I mean no, seriously. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but really? I've earned every last follower fair and square. If anybody thinks otherwise they can unfollow me now. Because if I can't even see how many comments my projects have, I think I'll quit and bring my programming talents elsewhere. At some point you just have to accept the fact that it doesn't have to be equal.

2. If it really is all about programming, why do you heed the complaints of Scratchers who badger you about Add Everything studios, or “Unfairness”. Like seriously, does it really matter if your project is in a few studios? So you removed the manager and project count from studios. Great, now if I ever want to see how many projects I have in one of my perfectly legitimate studios, I have to count them by hand! That's a huge waste of time! Is Scratch slowly being overtaken by a Scratch Team who regulates everything a user does and says?

Unrelated. Actually, no, it's not. Did you just skim through it and dismiss everything because you wanted to do it quickly and write us off as dumb?

3. It doesn't even do anything. Follow for follows will still continue. In fact, I bet that if I offered free F4Fs on this thread, I'd get lots of takers. Besides, if the number doesn't matter, who cares if somebody gets a few non-legitimate follows? Spam isn't destructive or anything, just annoying. That's why I allow it on my profile, just to show that it isn't that bad. In fact, anybody that is reading this thread, FEEL FREE TO SPAM ALL YOU WANT ON MY PROFILE. (Within reason, of course.) I will look at anything you post, if I can.

————————————————————————————-A very, very, very disappointed and upset Superdoggy.

You can't really say that F4Fs will still continue, but I don't even know if that's the reason ST updated, anyways. I certainly don't notice a lack of these comments, but sure, that was a weak point, perhaps.

By TheGeneraless:

I too am quite upset about this ‘update’. While I do understand that you hope to discourage f4f comments, the truth of the matter is this: People will NEVER stop asking the people they admire/like to follow them, until they do. It doesn't matter how many comments, followers or whatnot they have–f4f will not stop with the restriction of comment/follower/following visibility.

Same as above. Not exactly. Since I'm well-known, I still get asked.

I am proud of how many comments and followers I have gained. I am proud of how many I am following. Taking the ability to see these is downright painful for me and, undoubtedly, for nearly every other Scratcher who RPs a lot or keeps track of important documents/projects/etc. with comment numbers. I worked hard to see my followers rise. People worked hard to see my following count rise. I have comments because we both worked hard.

Also based on the idea that followers/following have been completely removed. Comment numbers, well, I guess that's justified. Still annoying, even if you still can see it by clicking more.

This update, to me, seems like the restriction of freedom. Yes, you want to help. But really, is this the best way to do it? Maybe you should just put in an ‘ignore user’ button instead, like we used to have so long ago. Things definitely need to go back to the way they used to be, or people are going to start Scratch-rioting. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

I do not think that the number of followers a person has constitutes to how good of a Scratcher they are, but if they earned them, they should be able to show it. I know that I appreciate each and every one of my followers, and I appreciate every person I follow, regardless of how many people are following them/how many projects they have created. The number feels like an achievement, and I am 100% sure this view is shared by many of my fellow Scratchers.

Same as above Seriously, stop dismissing large chunks of text because you don't want to deal with it.

Taking away a right is not an update.

–TG

So, these arguments, whether early on, or lately posted, all deserve a direct response from the Scratch Team, right? These people put time and effort to put together their posts because of this update. The Scratch Team has just sort of put these in the same group as the not-as-good arguments and written a response to those…

Take a try at methodically countering these arguments. It's harder than it might look.

Done.

-Scratchifier-
RED-drag0n
Scratcher
79 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Scratchifier wrote:

900miles wrote:

I'm not Speakvisually, but here are my counter-arguments.

Scratchifier wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



Oh, and what are your opinions on these arguments?

By theonlygusti:

I hate the new addition. I mean, the thought is good, but it's stupid.

I loved looking at numbers. I don't judge people on how many followers they have, or how many people they are following, I just find it interesting.

Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.

It's horrible.


This is based on the assumption that they're completely removing the numbers, which they're not. No, it isn't. “Also, it ruins the aesthetic appeal of your profile page, and the others. It's like a gash, a void, where there ought to be something but isn't.”

By Superdoggy:

Dear Scratch Team,
Please do not take this message personally. I have tried to get my point across by posting my honest opinion on this issue. I am sorry for the fact that it is slightly “undiplomatic”, but I did not want to sugarcoat the issue and miss the point of the problem entirely. I can edit any part of this post that you find offensive. Thank you for reading.

This update is bad for many reasons:

1. I've spent hours and hours for 2 years and 7 months on making high quality projects and many friends. Are you saying that I don't deserve to see how many comments I've gotten, or how many friends I have at a glance? You might as well make this a 100% socialist Scratch and remove the love-its and favorites too. And while you're at it you could get rid of the front page, and you could get rid of the views, and then you could make each page only load one comment at a time, just so that others wouldn't feel sad when they saw a project with more comments then theirs…

Same thing, with a Slippery Slope argument too. Dumping me at a website with so-called logical fallacies is NOT going to cut it. The point was not to discredit all of the arguments and say “not good enough, I shouldn't have to bother with a real response.”

No. I mean no, seriously. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but really? I've earned every last follower fair and square. If anybody thinks otherwise they can unfollow me now. Because if I can't even see how many comments my projects have, I think I'll quit and bring my programming talents elsewhere. At some point you just have to accept the fact that it doesn't have to be equal.

2. If it really is all about programming, why do you heed the complaints of Scratchers who badger you about Add Everything studios, or “Unfairness”. Like seriously, does it really matter if your project is in a few studios? So you removed the manager and project count from studios. Great, now if I ever want to see how many projects I have in one of my perfectly legitimate studios, I have to count them by hand! That's a huge waste of time! Is Scratch slowly being overtaken by a Scratch Team who regulates everything a user does and says?

Unrelated. Actually, no, it's not. Did you just skim through it and dismiss everything because you wanted to do it quickly and write us off as dumb?

3. It doesn't even do anything. Follow for follows will still continue. In fact, I bet that if I offered free F4Fs on this thread, I'd get lots of takers. Besides, if the number doesn't matter, who cares if somebody gets a few non-legitimate follows? Spam isn't destructive or anything, just annoying. That's why I allow it on my profile, just to show that it isn't that bad. In fact, anybody that is reading this thread, FEEL FREE TO SPAM ALL YOU WANT ON MY PROFILE. (Within reason, of course.) I will look at anything you post, if I can.

————————————————————————————-A very, very, very disappointed and upset Superdoggy.

You can't really say that F4Fs will still continue, but I don't even know if that's the reason ST updated, anyways. I certainly don't notice a lack of these comments, but sure, that was a weak point, perhaps.

By TheGeneraless:

I too am quite upset about this ‘update’. While I do understand that you hope to discourage f4f comments, the truth of the matter is this: People will NEVER stop asking the people they admire/like to follow them, until they do. It doesn't matter how many comments, followers or whatnot they have–f4f will not stop with the restriction of comment/follower/following visibility.

Same as above. Not exactly. Since I'm well-known, I still get asked.

I am proud of how many comments and followers I have gained. I am proud of how many I am following. Taking the ability to see these is downright painful for me and, undoubtedly, for nearly every other Scratcher who RPs a lot or keeps track of important documents/projects/etc. with comment numbers. I worked hard to see my followers rise. People worked hard to see my following count rise. I have comments because we both worked hard.

Also based on the idea that followers/following have been completely removed. Comment numbers, well, I guess that's justified. Still annoying, even if you still can see it by clicking more.

This update, to me, seems like the restriction of freedom. Yes, you want to help. But really, is this the best way to do it? Maybe you should just put in an ‘ignore user’ button instead, like we used to have so long ago. Things definitely need to go back to the way they used to be, or people are going to start Scratch-rioting. It's happened before, it'll happen again.

I do not think that the number of followers a person has constitutes to how good of a Scratcher they are, but if they earned them, they should be able to show it. I know that I appreciate each and every one of my followers, and I appreciate every person I follow, regardless of how many people are following them/how many projects they have created. The number feels like an achievement, and I am 100% sure this view is shared by many of my fellow Scratchers.

Same as above Seriously, stop dismissing large chunks of text because you don't want to deal with it.

Taking away a right is not an update.

–TG

So, these arguments, whether early on, or lately posted, all deserve a direct response from the Scratch Team, right? These people put time and effort to put together their posts because of this update. The Scratch Team has just sort of put these in the same group as the not-as-good arguments and written a response to those…

Take a try at methodically countering these arguments. It's harder than it might look.

Done.

-Scratchifier-

If there was a character limit for the forums, you wouldn't have been able to do that
RED-drag0n
Scratcher
79 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



So is it possible in any way to find your profile comment count??
GoldenEagle98463
Scratcher
7 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Please Favourite and Love My project “Can You Survive”
Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

GoldenEagle98463 wrote:

Please Favourite and Love My project “Can You Survive”
Try the show and tell in the forums. ;D http://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/8/








































Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

RED-drag0n wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



So is it possible in any way to find your profile comment count??
Yes it is. ;D

Last edited by Superdoggy (Oct. 13, 2014 17:11:52)









































Aquaflame
Scratcher
100+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

I feel like people are putting too much emphasis on this update. It's only a small change.
GoldenEagle98463
Scratcher
7 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Please Favourite and Love My project “Can You Survive”
RED-drag0n
Scratcher
79 posts

Updates to Following and Followers

Superdoggy wrote:

RED-drag0n wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



So is it possible in any way to find your profile comment count??
Yes it is. ;D

How!?!?
Superdoggy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Updates to Following and Followers

RED-drag0n wrote:

Superdoggy wrote:

RED-drag0n wrote:

speakvisually wrote:

Howdy! Looks like there haven't been too many new points raised in the past week or two about this update. A lot of the arguments allude to the number being completely removed from the site - which is not the case. We've simply decided to de-emphasize the number. Sorry if you find this extra click via View All burdensome. But, we'll be keeping this change in place.

With that said: Data can definitely be fun to check out and play with - especially when that data is relevant to you. Look forward to updates on ways to empower you all to analyze and visualize your own learning and participation in the Scratch online community. Stay tuned!



So is it possible in any way to find your profile comment count??
Yes it is. ;D

How!?!?
Modified Griffpatch's HTML spider.








































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