KICK_THE_HABIT wrote:

Building it with them is difficult for the teacher and also restricting in that students work at different paces. In the past when I have wanted to teach a technique in another course, I have played video tutorials found on youtube and paused at different points to clarify things and give students time to do the task. Using a tutorial to take students through the steps of making something frees the teacher up to move around the room and supplement the video with one-on-one support.
I want them making games from the first project, because after doing a few simple games I want them to have the skill to create a fairly complex original game of their own. Plus that's how I am structuring each unit. So they will go from simple games to more complex.

You never mentioned how old your students are. I teach 10 to 12 year old kids. I can give you the following tips from my work with them:
- First, the kids should learn the basics of Scratch. This works very well with the scratch cards (https://scratch.mit.edu/tips).
- The kids work with the cards at their own pace.
- I am their coach and help if there are individual questions and problems.
- As soon as the kids have finished the first scratch cards, I encourage them to apply their acquired knowledge by writing their own projects (parallel to work with the scratch cards). They decide on the topic of the project.
- It is important that the kids can present their own works and receive feedback from their colleagues.
- I also encourage the students to investigate foreign projects as soon as possible and to collect instructive examples in studios (for example the projects recommended by RokCoder at www.codeclub.org.uk: https://scratch.mit.edu/users/CodeClubRik/
- Reading one or two books can also do no harm. I can recommend: Scratch Books by Breen, Derek, by McManus, Sean, and by Woodcock, Jon. My favorite book is “Learn to Programm with Scratch” by Majed Marji. But it is (despite the childish cover) rather written for adults.
- Only then you can expect the students to be able and motivated to write complex projects.

That is helpful. I teach 12th graders with no coding experience. Hopefully they will pick up Scratch quickly.

Here's my dilemma: Each unit will be introduced through a Serious game, which they will play and study to understand how games serve as a form of visual communication (I am a visual arts teacher). Then I will have them study and apply game design principles through GameStar Mechanic, where they can essentially prototype and do simple exercises to understand game dynamics. Then I will have them practice with Scratch, where I will run a video tutorial or have them follow steps in something like Code Club. Then I will have them remix their games with their own assets, but here's the thing…

I want them to make an original project at the end of each 5 week unit where their Scratch “remixed” game is inspired by the theme of the Serious game they were introduced to at the outset of the unit and which frames it conceptually. I am wondering if that will produce worthwhile results. I know that to leave the students free to just remix in any way they want will reduce the burden of directives with what to do with their projects, but I like that the unit comes full-circle if I design it to relate back to the Serious game they were introduced to. This also gets them thinking about how to translate ideas through games, as opposed to their projects just being random things like a pirate game or something.

Their final games for the year, which will be presented to the community, will have to be original Serious games, so if they make small ones over the weeks and months leading up to their final game, hopefully they will be well equipped to make a relatively complex and fun Serious game.

gameteacher wrote:

snip

Could you clarify what a “Serious” game is?

dude341 wrote:

gameteacher wrote:

snip

Could you clarify what a “Serious” game is?

Here's an example:
http://gambit.mit.edu/loadgame/afterland.php

gameteacher wrote:

dude341 wrote:

gameteacher wrote:

snip

Could you clarify what a “Serious” game is?

Here's an example:
http://gambit.mit.edu/loadgame/afterland.php

Well I am only part of a few that has a game with a speedrun over an hour. So I'm not sure that is practical.

I teach 12th graders with no coding experience.

I see you have another “clientele”…
However, I think the success of your project depends on the motivation of your students. Only if they are motivated enough to work voluntarily and independently on their skills outside of school (perhaps this is possible in art lessons…) they will reach a sufficiently high level.
By the way, I could recommend the book “Coding Games” by Jon Woodcock for your project: It tries to bring different game design principles closer to the reader by means of eight games, whose degree of difficulty continuously increases. This works very well and the book reaches a relatively high level compared to other Scratch books.

KICK_THE_HABIT wrote:

I teach 12th graders with no coding experience.

I see you have another “clientele”…
However, I think the success of your project depends on the motivation of your students. Only if they are motivated enough to work voluntarily and independently on their skills outside of school (perhaps this is possible in art lessons…) they will reach a sufficiently high level.
By the way, I could recommend the book “Coding Games” by Jon Woodcock for your project: It tries to bring different game design principles closer to the reader by means of eight games, whose degree of difficulty continuously increases. This works very well and the book reaches a relatively high level compared to other Scratch books.

Thanks for the recommendation. Is it “Coding Games in Scratch”?
You seem to be saying for kids to reach a high level with Scratch they would have to work on their own, because with class time they won't get that far. Why do you say that?

One of the things I have found with in class projects is what I call “burn out”. The kids will start with an idea and will work towards it after a few planning sessions but when it comes to creating the artwork, dealing with the code, numerous bugs, then design issues they run into. Sometimes I find they are burnt out, want to crumble the paper and start again with something new. Which is ok! Maybe they learned something new along the way, maybe they realize their code structure is not going to work and instead of dealing with a mess they start again.

I talk to my students about “scope”. The project you showed of the 2d side scroller, that has hundreds of hours of coding and art involved I assume. That example is far far beyond the “scope” they are ready for as beginners and when they compare their projects to that they will assumably be discouraged, some of them anyway. They are more likely to have a stick figure or a ball as the main sprite, not a sprite with hundreds of frames of animation.

Introducing a series of concepts and then allowing them to go in their own direction after a series of tutorials I have found to be the best medicine. Not saying it is the correct way, as we still do numerous in class projects and concepts that I hope they can then implement into their own creations. Some may take those concepts and make art, games, quizzes, self affirmations, friend projects, etc.

It is like giving a kid a ball and saying play THIS game with it. Instead, give them the concept of how a ball works and say what can you create with this ball?

Any help I can assist, as the forum will too I assume, we'd be glad to help. My kids often refer to the help for forums studio that I create example projects for. Feel free to use any concept from there that may help. https://scratch.mit.edu/studios/4133335

Is it “Coding Games in Scratch”?

Yes. Sorry, “in Scratch” is written in small letters on the cover…

You seem to be saying for kids to reach a high level with Scratch they would have to work on their own, because with class time they won't get that far. Why do you say that?

Will a beginner be able to play a beautiful piece of music on the piano after a year?
Will a beginner be able to dribble in football after a year of training?
Can a beginner make naturalistic drawings after one year of practice?
I think so, if he's motivated to invest a lot of time and energy in it.
There is no difference in Scratch. In order to tackle a complex project, the students must have practiced a lot before.

By the way: If you as a math teacher would set a task for the students, you could help them if they had problems with it. If you give your students a specific task in Scratch, you should be able to help them as well. I have found that this is not always so easy when the project is a bit more complex…

Introducing a series of concepts and then allowing them to go in their own direction after a series of tutorials I have found to be the best medicine.

I agree.

mstone326 wrote:

One of the things I have found with in class projects is what I call “burn out”. The kids will start with an idea and will work towards it after a few planning sessions but when it comes to creating the artwork, dealing with the code, numerous bugs, then design issues they run into. Sometimes I find they are burnt out, want to crumble the paper and start again with something new. Which is ok! Maybe they learned something new along the way, maybe they realize their code structure is not going to work and instead of dealing with a mess they start again.

I talk to my students about “scope”. The project you showed of the 2d side scroller, that has hundreds of hours of coding and art involved I assume. That example is far far beyond the “scope” they are ready for as beginners and when they compare their projects to that they will assumably be discouraged, some of them anyway. They are more likely to have a stick figure or a ball as the main sprite, not a sprite with hundreds of frames of animation.

Introducing a series of concepts and then allowing them to go in their own direction after a series of tutorials I have found to be the best medicine. Not saying it is the correct way, as we still do numerous in class projects and concepts that I hope they can then implement into their own creations. Some may take those concepts and make art, games, quizzes, self affirmations, friend projects, etc.

It is like giving a kid a ball and saying play THIS game with it. Instead, give them the concept of how a ball works and say what can you create with this ball?

Any help I can assist, as the forum will too I assume, we'd be glad to help. My kids often refer to the help for forums studio that I create example projects for. Feel free to use any concept from there that may help. https://scratch.mit.edu/studios/4133335

Which side scroller are you talking about? You mean the one on the Stem Fuse site?
The thing is, I want them to focus on visually communicating a concept. Serious games are games that tackle important topics, rather than just being entertainment. I want to give them an assignment; say something like, take this side scroller game and turn it into a game about friendship. That would give them direction, but still be open to their interpretation. I think you have to have a balance in that some kids want examples and need to be led step by step, while others want to break out and experiment on their own. My question is, can I realistically assume they could make a Serious game even from the simplest things they will be doing when they first start with Scratch? Or should I keep it more open and simple, just having them rebuild games step by step but in a progressive way and hope that by the spring semester they will have gained enough skills to be able to sit down and finally address the topic of Serious games, making an original Serious game?

KICK_THE_HABIT wrote:

Is it “Coding Games in Scratch”?

Yes. Sorry, “in Scratch” is written in small letters on the cover…

You seem to be saying for kids to reach a high level with Scratch they would have to work on their own, because with class time they won't get that far. Why do you say that?

Will a beginner be able to play a beautiful piece of music on the piano after a year?
Will a beginner be able to dribble in football after a year of training?
Can a beginner make naturalistic drawings after one year of practice?
I think so, if he's motivated to invest a lot of time and energy in it.
There is no difference in Scratch. In order to tackle a complex project, the students must have practiced a lot before.

By the way: If you as a math teacher would set a task for the students, you could help them if they had problems with it. If you give your students a specific task in Scratch, you should be able to help them as well. I have found that this is not always so easy when the project is a bit more complex…

I agree. That is why I am moving to Scratch. I'm fed up with not knowing enough about a program to be able to easily answer technical questions when students get stuck. I want to get to a comfort level where I will be able to actually teach Scratch, rather than leave students on their own to learn it. But how far can I realistically expect them to get in a semester and a half, before their final projects? I would think they could get quite complex with their games, given that they will be much older than all the little kids who seem to be working with Scratch.

I am also a high school baseball coach and I have introduced Scratch on rain days to a few players, grades 11,12, while we wait for our gym time to open up. They all had the same reaction, what? How does that work and when they saw a full set of scripts they couldn't wrap their head around how the order of the loop worked looking at a large project. It was overwhelming.

We we made a simple loop but I added wait blocks in after every block so they could watch the sequence of the loop execute. I didn't do lessons with them, just a quick hour here and there. You'll spend time on x/y coordinates, the move block vs. change x/change y blocks. Pointing in direction and rotation style. Broadcasting, variables, lists, proper initialization of a project to avoid double green flag clicked. There is so much to learn, especially if they are new.

Then a design question for you. Will you try to teach them how to create a project only using 1 forever loop and only 1 green flag? No forever loops and 1 green flag? Or let them play and put dozens of forever loops which will cause lag and more importantly make it near impossible to know what scripts are running at what time as the Green flag blocks do not fire at the same time.

I would recommend smaller projects to assure they have a chance to complete. Last thing you want at the end of the semester is a time crunch, stress they they won't finish. I think the end of semester will be much more rewarding with several completed projects with the satisfaction of completion. Just my 2 cents. Once again, offering to help in any way you may need if I can.

Edit:
Here is a side scroller tutorial from Griffpatch, look through some of his projects and their code…. If you threw this tutorial at the kids before they knew the basics I think they would be lost. But this would be a good example and base code for a platformer

https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/67727504/

How would I work Serious games in? I am designing each unit so that there's an intro through a Serious game that they will play and then analyze to understand visual communication. Then through Game Star Mechanic I will teach them game design principles. Then when they do a Scratch tutorial, they will need to remake it for a project. At that point I want to circle back to the Serious game of the unit and have them make something related to that theme. But I want to be true to the Scratch learning process and not burden students with too much to do at once. What would you suggest?

I am designing each unit so that there's an intro through a Serious game that they will play and then analyze to understand visual communication. Then through Game Star Mechanic I will teach them game design principles. Then when they do a Scratch tutorial, they will need to remake it for a project.

I don't like being a pessimist. But if you ask me for my honest opinion, I don't think that's how it's gonna work.
a) Stay with one platform (Game Star Mechanic or Scratch).
b) If you choose Scratch, a viable way would be for the students to develop the basics of Scratch at their own pace with the aforementioned book “Coding Games in Scratch”. At the same time, they could be encouraged to apply the fundamentals they have learned in their own projects. In between, the students will be given time to briefly present their own works and receive feedback.
Once the students have worked through the book, they could then program a game on a theme of your choice.

KICK_THE_HABIT wrote:

I am designing each unit so that there's an intro through a Serious game that they will play and then analyze to understand visual communication. Then through Game Star Mechanic I will teach them game design principles. Then when they do a Scratch tutorial, they will need to remake it for a project.

I don't like being a pessimist. But if you ask me for my honest opinion, I don't think that's how it's gonna work.
a) Stay with one platform (Game Star Mechanic or Scratch).
b) If you choose Scratch, a viable way would be for the students to develop the basics of Scratch at their own pace with the aforementioned book “Coding Games in Scratch”. At the same time, they could be encouraged to apply the fundamentals they have learned in their own projects. In between, the students will be given time to briefly present their own works and receive feedback.
Once the students have worked through the book, they could then program a game on a theme of your choice.

That's not pessimistic. Thanks for the feedback.

But why stay with only one platform? I don't know how familiar you are with Game Star Mechanic, but it's too easy for 12th graders. I am using it because it is a way to do rapid prototyping and learn the principles of game design (they have thorough coverage on their site through their lessons). Exploring the principles in Scratch would not be as effective because students will be too caught up with trying to figure out coding.
Regarding learning at their own pace, it doesn't work in an actual course because everyone has to have things done by deadlines. Since my students rarely do homework, things need to be paced for the group in class. I am going to look through the book and see if I can use it as a basis for teaching how to rebuild games so I don't have to rely on Code Club or on the Scratch Tips.
Again, if students don't start thinking about themes for games (and creating Serious games) until after they have spent weeks and months working with Scratch, how will presenting the Serious games as frameworks for each unit have impact?

Do you have an example of a game you have already created completely to show them the steps you took, from Story Board to code. I think that will help them and will give you an idea of the time it took for you to complete the task. Assuming you are familiar with Scratch, time how long the project took, then you can estimate the extra time someone unfamiliar with Scratch may take.

You can also document the times you got stuck, collision detection, scrolling, scores, etc so you are prepared for their questions. I think creating your own first will give you a time frame and then add several hours to it. Maybe clock it by segment but don't rush against the clock, work at a normal pace and every time you hit a roadblock, document what it was and how you fixed it.

Yes, that is a great approach. I have thought about it before. I am just learning Scratch. I am jumping in and trying everything. I hope, by the end of the summer break, to be proficient enough that I will feel confident teaching it. This forum is a huge help.

The thing I am most stuck on is the curricular issue. I assume most people who teach Scratch just do that all year. That is, they move students through simple tutorials and have them make more and more complex projects. My objective is different. As a visual arts teacher, and one who is interested in games as a form of visual culture that communicate specific types of meaning, I am interested in Serious games as a lens onto our larger culture. I think of Scratch, as I do the tools I teach students to use in my drawing course, as a means to an end. That end is effective communication of ideas through images. Therefore I am using this new structure: Introduce a Serious game and analyze it, study game design principles through Game Star Mechanic, then learn some Scratch skills and make a Scratch game. But all the pieces should fit together and support one another. So my struggle right now is figuring out how to tie back that Scratch game they will culminate each unit with so that it relates to the Serious game we opened the unit with.

I am hoping someone can provide some insight here.

I am not familiar with Game Star but any specific questions you may have about Scratch code or whatnot please feel free to ask. If you are looking for a great platforming tutorial search Griffpatch Platformer Tutorial. It will take you through all you need. Just go slowly.

Also, I have a studio called Help with Forums and there are dozens of example projects for specific question types, lists, variables, etc. Feel free to use any of the code or concepts in there as well. I am interested in how your project turns out and how your personal example project and time line comes out. Keep us posted.

Any thoughts on kids transforming simple Scratch games into Serious games? Or just having them write proposals as they go and then in the second semester creating a Serious game?

Scratch games aren't always simple. Look at this Griffpatch example and the code in it. It is FAR from simple. Scratch can go as far as you want it to. It will run into issues with lag and performance if you have forever loops all over the place running when they aren't necessary.

Here is a game called Scratchnapped. Look at the code, this is far from simple. I am still a little gray on the “Serious” game definition.
https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/10118230/