Fewest amount of blocks technically needed to use Scratch

PullJosh

bobbybee wrote:
PullJosh wrote:
MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
I've removed show/hide watcher blocks because they can (with a bit of difficulty) be replicated with pen
Are we assuming, then, that speed of rendering isn't important?

Edit: Also, new relevant siggy text.
I think that was an assumption from the beginning

I guess I'm just a little slow…

HA HA HA PEN RENDERING SADNESS JOKE HA

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bobbybee

PullJosh wrote:
bobbybee wrote:
PullJosh wrote:
MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
I've removed show/hide watcher blocks because they can (with a bit of difficulty) be replicated with pen
Are we assuming, then, that speed of rendering isn't important?

Edit: Also, new relevant siggy text.
I think that was an assumption from the beginning
I guess I'm just a little slow…
HA HA HA PEN RENDERING SADNESS JOKE HA

Well, I suppose if we change some initial rules, I can do it in one block:

interpret base64 () as sb2 :: control

“Ooo, can I call you Señorita Bee?” ~Chibi-Matoran

MegaApuTurkUltra

And here's a full list of what's required and what needs workarounds. For the sake of laziness, I copied this off block selectors and didn't bother to make things reporters. You get the idea

() - () // use join[-](number)
() * () // REQUIRED
() / () // https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/1955358/
() and () // https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/1955054/
() Mod () // use / and floor
() + () // REQUIRED
() < () // REQUIRED
() = () // REQUIRED
() > () // use not < and not =
() or () // use not<not<> and not<>>
Answer // REQUIRED
Backdrop # // REQUIRED
If on Edge, Bounce // use touching edge and rotate 180
Broadcast ()  // REQUIRED
Change () Effect by () // keep track of effect value with variable
Change Pen Color by () // keep track of color with variable and do hsl calculation
Change Pen Shade by () // same
Change Pen Size by () // keep track of pen size
Change Size by () // keep track of size
Change Tempo by () // keep track of tempo
Change () by () // use set [thing] to ((thing)+(...))
Change Volume by () // keep track of volume
Change X by () // keep track of position
Change Y by () // same
Clear // REQUIRED
Color () is Touching ()? // REQUIRED
Delete ( v) of [ v] // REQUIRED
Go to Front // use move back (-9999)
[ v] of ()::operators // REQUIRED
Join ()() // REQUIRED
list reporter::list // REQUIRED
Costume # // REQUIRED
Create Clone of () // use stamp / lists
Delete This Clone // same
Distance to () // calculate yourself using () of () sensor
Ask () and Wait // REQUIRED
Broadcast () and Wait // set a variable at the end of your broadcast and wait for it
Forever // use repeat until <1=1>
End
If () // use if, then, else
End
If () // https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/1955002/
Else
End
Play Sound () Until Done // REQUIRED
Repeat () // use repeat until + variable
End
Stop [ v] // REQUIRED
Repeat Until () // REQUIRED
End
Wait Until () // use repeat until
Play Drum () for () Beats // REQUIRED
Clear // REQUIRED
Move () Steps // use set x/y and sin/cos
[ v] of [ v]::sensing // REQUIRED
Item () of () // REQUIRED
Username // REQUIRED
Glide () Secs to X: () Y: () // use loop
Go Back () Layers // REQUIRED
Go to () // use () of () or mouse x/y
Go to X: () Y: () // REQUIRED
Direction // keep track yourself
Point in Direction () // REQUIRED
Hide // REQUIRED
Hide List () // REQUIRED
Hide Variable () // REQUIRED
Insert () at () of () // REQUIRED
Key () Pressed? // REQUIRED
Letter () of () // REQUIRED
Length of [ v]::list // REQUIRED
() Contains () // search yourself with loop
Switch Costume to () // REQUIRED
Set Instrument to () // REQUIRED
Mouse Down? // REQUIRED
Mouse X // REQUIRED
Mouse Y // REQUIRED
Next Costume // use switch costume
Next Backdrop // use switch backdrop
Not () // https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/post/1954949/
Play Note () for () Beats // REQUIRED
Set Pen Color to [#ffffff]  // REQUIRED
Set Pen Size to () // REQUIRED
Play Drum () for () Beats // REQUIRED
Play Sound () // use play until done with broadcast
Point Towards () // point towards atan (x/y) of (thing)
Pen Down // REQUIRED
Pen Up // REQUIRED
Pick Random () to () // make own PRNG?
variable reporter::variables // REQUIRED
Rest for () Beats // use repeat until + days since 2000
Round () // floor/ceil
Say ()  // REQUIRED
Say () for () Secs // say [thing], wait using repeat until, say []
Size // keep track yourself
Backdrop Name // keep track yourself
Video () on () // REQUIRED
Set () Effect to () // REQUIRED
Replace Item () of () With () // use insert/delete
Set Pen Color to () // calculate hsl yourself
Set Pen Shade to () // same
Set Rotation Style () // REQUIRED
Set Size to ()% // REQUIRED
Set Tempo to () bpm // REQUIRED
Set () to () // REQUIRED
Turn Video () // REQUIRED
Set Video Transparency to ()% // REQUIRED
Set Volume to ()% // REQUIRED
Show // REQUIRED
Show List () // REQUIRED
Show Variable () // REQUIRED
Loudness // REQUIRED
Stamp // REQUIRED
Switch Backdrop to () // REQUIRED
Switch Backdrop to () and Wait // repeat until backdrop changed again
Stop All Sounds // REQUIRED
Length of ()::operators // loop as per theonlygusti
Tempo // keep track yourself
Think () // REQUIRED
Think () for () Secs // think [thing], repeat until to wait, think []
Current () // use days since 2000
Timer // use days since 2000 and offset variable
Reset Timer // REQUIRED (for hat block)
Days Since 2000 // REQUIRED
Touching ()? // REQUIRED
Touching Color ()? // REQUIRED
Turn cw () Degrees // use point towards
Turn ccw () Degrees // use point towards
Volume // keep track yourself
Wait () Secs // use repeat until + days since 2000
When This Sprite Clicked // REQUIRED
When I Start as a Clone // use stamps/lists
When Green Flag Clicked // REQUIRED
When I Receive () // REQUIRED
When () Key Pressed // REQUIRED
When Backdrop Switches to () // REQUIRED
When () > () // REQUIRED
X Position // keep track yourself
Set X to () // use go to
Y Position // keep track yourself
Set Y to () // use go to

If you see anything required that you have a reasonable workaround for (eg, using e^ and log for multiplication and division is not acceptable because of accuracy issues) let me know

Last edited by MegaApuTurkUltra (June 25, 2016 04:53:57)

$(".box-head")[0].textContent = "committing AT crimes since $whenever"

djdolphin

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
Not () // REQUIRED

You can do something like

<<...> = <[1] = [0]>>

!

theonlygusti

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
I've removed show/hide watcher blocks because they can (with a bit of difficulty) be replicated with pen

Then go ahead and remove all the looks blocks too, and the touching blocks, as they can all be re-done using pen :roll:

PullJosh

if <condition :: motion> then
    when true :: grey
else 
    when false :: grey
end

Can be replaced with this:

set [genericVar v] to [0]
repeat until <<condition :: motion> or <(genericVar) = [1]>>
    when false :: grey
    set [genericVar v] to [1]
end
repeat until <(genericVar) = [1]>
    when true :: grey
    set [genericVar v] to [1]
end

Edit: You'd have to replace the variables with one-item lists as discussed previously, but that's too tedious to write out atm. Just imagine it.

Last edited by PullJosh (April 30, 2016 17:41:44)

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PullJosh

If we want to be backwards-compatible, we need to support forever-if and loud?, but those are both easy.

forever if <condition :: motion>
    
end

becomes

repeat until <[1] = [0]> // This is a forever
    set [genericVar v] to [0] // And this is just my if, else from above
    repeat until <<condition :: motion> or <(genericVar) = [1]>>
        set [genericVar v] to [1]
    end
    repeat until <(genericVar) = [1]>
        when true :: grey
        set [genericVar v] to [1]
    end
end

<loud?>

would become

<(loudness) > [30]> // Selected 30 b/c wiki said so

Loud? <– I just used the [wiki] tag!

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theonlygusti

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
re: removing if/else and using repeat until: I'm not exactly clear on how that workaround would work. Pls explain?

if <condition :: operators> then
true :: grey
else
false :: grey
end

is

set [counter v] to (0 )
set [counter2 v] to (0)
repeat until <<(counter) = [1]> or <condition :: operators>>
change [counter v] by (1)
end
repeat until <<(counter) = [1]> or <(counter2) = [1]>>
true :: grey
change [counter2 v] by (1)
end
repeat until <(counter2) = [1]>
false :: grey
change [counter2 v] by (1)
end

re: using e^/log for * and /: I'd worry about accuracy

Yes, I tried multiplying 4 by 5 and it gave me 19.999999999997 using my technique. [Removed ಠ_ಠ] you Scratch, why can't you use Wolfram as your maths engine?

Surely only / is required though, a/(1/b) = a*b? Or is this also inaccurate…..

I've removed show/hide watcher blocks because they can (with a bit of difficulty) be replicated with pen

Nope. Just nope. Then everything can be replicated with pen (which is not true)

Last edited by Harakou (April 30, 2016 18:54:07)

theonlygusti

PullJosh wrote:
Loud? <– I just used the [wiki] tag!

That's awesome! I didn't know that existed,

theonlygusti

Also MegaApuTurkUltra are you sure you need the and block?

<<(a) = <(b) < (b)>> < (b)>

seems to work for me.

EDIT: I broke the renderer. Here it is:

Last edited by theonlygusti (April 30, 2016 18:04:09)

MegaApuTurkUltra

Ok, I added back watcher blocks, and added your suggestions

Last edited by MegaApuTurkUltra (April 30, 2016 18:07:56)

$(".box-head")[0].textContent = "committing AT crimes since $whenever"

epicanna27

Technically, you wouldn't need much.
To make Scratch still easy, you'd still need all the costumes and stuff.

Although, there are tons of useless blocks. I have a least favorite Scratch block:

if on edge, bounce

sorry guys

i fed my signature to my pet kumquat

but he is still hungry so hide your signatures kids

CodeLegend

@MegaApuTurkUltra…

Does

((a) / ((1) / (b)))

Count as an adequate workaround for the multiplication block? I haven't payed much attention to rounding details in the past.

EDIT:

I've also seen projects that use a certain pen color to remove pen trails and show the background, although I can't remember where. This could make the clear block unnecessary.

EDIT:

Also, I can't think of any time when the background would change without this being caused by a script, so is the [when background switches to ] necessary? You could just add a broadcast whenever something changes the background.

Last edited by CodeLegend (April 30, 2016 19:19:40)

“… your beard people are crazier than my hat people.”

Firedrake969

Something along the lines of “if b is 0, return 0, else return a/(1/b)” would work for multiplication I guess

'17 rickoid

bf97b44a7fbd33db070f6ade2b7dc549

PullJosh

Firedrake969 wrote:
Something along the lines of “if b is 0, return 0, else return a/(1/b)” would work for multiplication I guess

(<<(b) = [0]> = <[1] = [0]>> * ((a) / ((1) / (b))))

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MegaApuTurkUltra

PullJosh wrote:
Firedrake969 wrote:
Something along the lines of “if b is 0, return 0, else return a/(1/b)” would work for multiplication I guess
(<<(b) = [0]> = <[1] = [0]>> * ((a) / ((1) / (b))))

Ok, added

I love your sig :P

So far, 67 out of 140 blocks are eliminated. Almost 50%!

Last edited by MegaApuTurkUltra (April 30, 2016 21:10:20)

$(".box-head")[0].textContent = "committing AT crimes since $whenever"

Jonathan50

Any C program, recursive or not, will run out of stack frames given a small enough stack size

Not yet a Knight of the Mu Calculus.

theonlygusti

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
PullJosh wrote:
Firedrake969 wrote:
Something along the lines of “if b is 0, return 0, else return a/(1/b)” would work for multiplication I guess
(<<(b) = [0]> = <[1] = [0]>> * ((a) / ((1) / (b))))
Ok, added

I love your sig :P

So far, 67 out of 145 blocks are eliminated. Almost 50%!

I eliminated 86; why is there such a large discrepancy between our answers?

Last edited by theonlygusti (April 30, 2016 23:18:34)

MegaApuTurkUltra

theonlygusti wrote:
MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
PullJosh wrote:
Firedrake969 wrote:
Something along the lines of “if b is 0, return 0, else return a/(1/b)” would work for multiplication I guess
(<<(b) = [0]> = <[1] = [0]>> * ((a) / ((1) / (b))))
Ok, added

I love your sig :P

So far, 67 out of 145 blocks are eliminated. Almost 50%!
I eliminated 86; why is there such a large discrepancy between our answers?

Pls explain the workarounds you have?

$(".box-head")[0].textContent = "committing AT crimes since $whenever"

liam48D

Hey, maybe I'll just make a list everybody can use.

Oh wait..

202e-202e-202e-202e-202e UNI-CODE~~~~~

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