pippy2011eight wrote:

(#3125)

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

pippy2011eight wrote:

(#3121)
Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

This is the part that's concerning. If they spent so much time that they could create a semi-functional demo, and the best they could come up with is the generic sidebar chatbot, that's concerning. It's just kinda showing that it's all just a hype. It feels like there's not much thought and just rush. Rush to join in on the fun little chugga chugga choo choo hype train.

but it also means that if they haven't fully figured out how to implement it, we could move it to other things, like a better “clean up blocks” feature

Yes, but it's not just about fully implementing it. They could've brainstormed way better ideas to use an LLM with 30 minutes of brainstorming without needing to show the whole world a half-baked demo. They could've went about fully implementing it in private with thinking rather than creating the most generic AI assistant possible and even daring showing it to the world. The hardest part was probably getting the context from scratch-blocks (the blockly part of scratch), but other than that, it's very generic.

I could start working on my version of an AI assistant for Scratch, but yknow, with high school and all, it's very hard to get free time. But I will work on it

pippy2011eight wrote:

Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

How can anyone pretend the CLA is being handled carefully?

The moderators weren’t told about the extremely controversial TOS change, and not even the director of technology actually knows what the AI will look like a full year after it was announced. How are we meant to think Scratch hasn’t left behind its values for greed when it has left behind its own employees?

Exascerbescence wrote:

(#3130)

pippy2011eight wrote:

Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

How can anyone pretend the CLA is being handled carefully?

The moderators weren’t told about the extremely controversial TOS change, and not even the director of technology actually knows what the AI will look like a full year after it was announced. How are we meant to think Scratch hasn’t left behind its values for greed when it has left behind its own employees?

it's being handled very carefully. As you can see here, the AI very carefully hallucinates a food truck that doesn't exist in the project.

edit: the scratch filter deleted my timestamp. it's 19:52

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

pippy2011eight wrote:

(#3121)
Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

This is the part that's concerning. If they spent so much time that they could create a semi-functional demo, and the best they could come up with is the generic sidebar chatbot, that's concerning. It's just kinda showing that it's all just a hype. It feels like there's not much thought and just rush. Rush to join in on the fun little chugga chugga choo choo hype train.

“…spent so much time…”

Yes “…it feels like…” you should have stopped right there, because you're promulgating a false narrative of what we've been up to.

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

Exascerbescence wrote:

(#3130)

pippy2011eight wrote:

Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

How can anyone pretend the CLA is being handled carefully?

The moderators weren’t told about the extremely controversial TOS change, and not even the director of technology actually knows what the AI will look like a full year after it was announced. How are we meant to think Scratch hasn’t left behind its values for greed when it has left behind its own employees?

it's being handled very carefully. As you can see here, the AI very carefully hallucinates a food truck that doesn't exist in the project.

edit: the scratch filter deleted my timestamp. it's 19:52

Perhaps you should have also included that this video is from 8 months ago, and it says in the first 30 seconds that this is Work In Progress.

-BluEagle- wrote:

Someone2939 wrote:

Ransom321Ransom wrote:

idk why people are so against ai on scratch it's used to help not create projects for people

yeah. we should calm down instead of yelling like an example:

We need money to sue scratch team. Do we win?

That is a horrible idea.

Pretty sure that second comment was a joke.

oh ok

Maybe we could still add an AI but it wouldn't help with making scripts and projects, instead it would generate images you can use as costumes if you can't find anything you want on the sprite/costume library and can't make the sprite in the costume editor.

scratchy_boy106 wrote:

Maybe we could still add an AI but it wouldn't help with making scripts and projects, instead it would generate images you can use as costumes if you can't find anything you want on the sprite/costume library and can't make the sprite in the costume editor.

Dude image generation takes away self-expression, no support

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

ajskateboarder wrote:

(#3077)
This is how most modern AI assistants are made today? How did you determine that Scratch has implemented the CLA “wrong?”

That's exactly why it sucks. Most “modern” (which is a funny word since all LLMs can be considered modern as the technology is only 4 years old) AI assistants are pretty much overhyped slopbots made by corporate directors who don't even know how LLMs work. LLMs can be great for a lot of things. But making what you want people to perceive as some omniscient digital entity is not possible using a flimsy little generative pre-trained transformer. From the demo video, they went with the good ol' “AI sidebar that takes up a third of your screen just for the hallucinating clanker to yap on” way of making an AI assistant, which is extremely overused. This is Scratch! Couldn't they have come up with better ideas in seconds?

This really doesn't answer my question and it just seems like you want to keep talking past people to reuse the word “slopbot,” and talk about how everyone thinks ChatGPT is an omniscient digital entity except for you

And I don't think you've used an llm for at least the past 6 months. I mean, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to single out llms as chats. Other integrations would be good from a UI/UX perspective, but they are absolutely not needed to improve model performance

scratch already awful with the trends we have, there is no remix and see inside same with no report and it sucks.

scratchy_boy106 wrote:

Maybe we could still add an AI but it wouldn't help with making scripts and projects, instead it would generate images you can use as costumes if you can't find anything you want on the sprite/costume library and can't make the sprite in the costume editor.

thats rejected

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

I feel like they should focus on fixing currently broken features (search indexing, wiki modifications, etc.) before they add things that they aren't sure how to implement. Not that I'm against AI, I just think that it shouldn't be a top priority.

Blobfish_Industries wrote:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

I feel like they should focus on fixing currently broken features (search indexing, wiki modifications, etc.) before they add things that they aren't sure how to implement. Not that I'm against AI, I just think that it shouldn't be a top priority.

and who said adding AI was the top priority?

This also seems like a huge privacy concern. Will I be able to consent to my projects being fed to AI or do I have no say in it? I dont want my work and art being scraped by AI.

Blobfish_Industries wrote:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

I feel like they should focus on fixing currently broken features (search indexing, wiki modifications, etc.) before they add things that they aren't sure how to implement. Not that I'm against AI, I just think that it shouldn't be a top priority.

codubee wrote:

The issue with indexing has absolutely nothing to do with the tech and everything to do with folks continuously working to get inappropriate stuff into trending.

This implies the indexer was deliberately turned off

codubee wrote:

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

pippy2011eight wrote:

(#3121)
Guys! Codubee also commented this:

codubee wrote:

We haven't fully worked out how AI will be part of Scratch yet, so when you say, “add AI” what exactly do you mean? Because we don't even know exactly what that will mean yet…

king

This is the part that's concerning. If they spent so much time that they could create a semi-functional demo, and the best they could come up with is the generic sidebar chatbot, that's concerning. It's just kinda showing that it's all just a hype. It feels like there's not much thought and just rush. Rush to join in on the fun little chugga chugga choo choo hype train.

“…spent so much time…”

Yes “…it feels like…” you should have stopped right there, because you're promulgating a false narrative of what we've been up to.

That feels like is very important because you should try to be in the community's perspective. If for 8 months there was a misleading perspective on what the Scratch Team has been doing, then the Scratch Foundation would've been more transparent and said explicitly what they were really doing.
Just because something isn't true doesn't help the broken trust stemming from the miscommunication, or perhaps lack thereof. The short little forum announcements saying “we're working on making scratch better” helps in absolutely nothing since “better” and “improving” is subjective, and there no mention of what they're actually technically doing. Even GitHub, which is a Microslop-owned for profit, is way more open with their community in exactly what they're doing. You might argue they have more people, but it doesn't take much to write a changelog for the stuff y'all are doing, with specific details, and other stuff. These blog and forum apologies seem like they are targeting kids with their language, but what we really want is a true reason why. Explained with explicit links and explanations to specific laws with the specific section numbers. Show the reasoning or the trust will keep eroding.

ajskateboarder wrote:

scratchcode1_2_3 wrote:

ajskateboarder wrote:

(#3077)
This is how most modern AI assistants are made today? How did you determine that Scratch has implemented the CLA “wrong?”

That's exactly why it sucks. Most “modern” (which is a funny word since all LLMs can be considered modern as the technology is only 4 years old) AI assistants are pretty much overhyped slopbots made by corporate directors who don't even know how LLMs work. LLMs can be great for a lot of things. But making what you want people to perceive as some omniscient digital entity is not possible using a flimsy little generative pre-trained transformer. From the demo video, they went with the good ol' “AI sidebar that takes up a third of your screen just for the hallucinating clanker to yap on” way of making an AI assistant, which is extremely overused. This is Scratch! Couldn't they have come up with better ideas in seconds?

This really doesn't answer my question and it just seems like you want to keep talking past people to reuse the word “slopbot,” and talk about how everyone thinks ChatGPT is an omniscient digital entity except for you

And I don't think you've used an llm for at least the past 6 months. I mean, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to single out llms as chats. Other integrations would be good from a UI/UX perspective, but they are absolutely not needed to improve model performance

Exactly! LLMs shouldn't be just chats. That's what I'm saying. Also, I use LLMs literally every day of my life. I've been using ChatGPT way less ever since it's become so disgustingly lobotomized by OpenAI and talking to it is like ragebaiting myself at this point, so I use mostly Gemini now.

For everyone to read again my anti AI statements, this time I extended them a bit more.

Honestly what are ya people even gonna counter if I tell ya that the AI CLA is probably going to be incompetent as hell? (Someone say somethin'!)
Look, in the demo video didn't the ai say the project had a food truck that didn't even exist in the project? I mean it was an earlier version that can make mistakes, but not knowing which sprites exist is really a GRAVE mistake.
AI chats constantly lose context. Ever talked to like the ChatGPT? Whoops it forgets what you were actually talking about! Same rule will be for CLA. Don't think it's actually ready for a long discussion with you about your problems in your project.
The AI also hallucinates like nothing. Who says it will actually fix things instead of just implementing new BUGS when you wanna ask it for help? huh? And who is gonna remove those bugs from your project.

Just as an example ask the AI for something it wasn't explicitly trained about so like the specific chapter of a random book. It don't know that it don't know and it will just give some answer that will be displeasantly wrong and tricking the users. Same will be for Scratch questions!

Don't forget the learning process. I think an AI assistant to help kids code is okay but the fact that it's able to grab entire sprites and edit your project makes me doubt if it is really a teaching coding assistant or a vibe coding manager who you tell what you want and who then adds that to your project and implements it.
Don't think that just because people still can edit the project they will. Children usually take the easiest way and this just kills the learning process because the AI does basically everything. Don't think 8 year old me or you would have coded a platformer with human help or tutorials if they could just go to a random AI bot and say give me a platformer level and player sprite.

The automatic project translations sound good at first (lots of people including me dont understand the japanese projects despite them being everywhere). But look, automatic translation features never turn out half as good as they sound. YouTube added automatic syncronisation and its… terrible! Translations and meanings are incredibly context-dependent which will often lead to misunderstandings and might even make inappropiriate translations by accident. AI translators are really surprise boxes. Also, if you look at lesser used languages on the internet, for those ones (AI-)translators are usually especially horrible and mess up even more. Finally, those artificial translations sound horribly robot-like and kill the feeling of the original project. How do you for example want to translate poetry? An AI can't.

Then lets look at the saftey concens. People constantly find new ways to trick the AI to be inappropiate or if it moderates to trick it. And it is really intransparent so how are you gonna find out? And dont get me started on what happens if the AI gets on the inappropiate trip by itself. Self moderation never works accurately.

Also, privacy!
Yes, I joined this site 6 years ago and I NEVER WANTED TO BE IN AI TRAINING! What a great move to just add that now. And I feel like im really not the only one with that!

Finally, money. Thought bout how much money tis thing will cost the scratch foundation? Oh hell no.
This is like digging youreself a grave.

scratchy_boy106 wrote:

Maybe we could still add an AI but it wouldn't help with making scripts and projects, instead it would generate images you can use as costumes if you can't find anything you want on the sprite/costume library and can't make the sprite in the costume editor.

2letters: no

codubee said this about scratchcode1_2_3 and Exascerbescence after I said they were cooking up some really good arguments:

codubee wrote:

source
No they aren't. They are cooking up a bunch made up nonsense out of thin air.

I'm not calling codubee bad, but I wish codubee could explain how their arguments are nonsense.