GNARPY34561 wrote:

Rosics wrote:

Sasha_Banks272 wrote:

-snip-

I use AI, also it's not that bad..

This is just a bruh moment, like can we all take a moment to just say “bruh.”

That is literally not related to the forum topic at hand, and will spam it with unnecessary posts

I think people should read my old post. I don't know about doing it like this but I'll just quote myself so this doesnt get buried.


Actually, there are counter agruments.

Let us get into some points from the original topic.

1.) I do use AI pretty much almost everyday, but AI on Scratch seems very out of place and takes away from the one key charm of Scratch, that being human made-projects, human moderation, human users, etc. An AI, even in the place of just “helping” users is highly out of place.

I feel like this is a fair point in the sense of Ai being implemented in places where it is not seen as wanted and often unfitting. My personal example here is YouTube which has a feature where it automatically created an other language version of some videos using AI voices that terribly suck.
However, Scratch is different in the sense of that it IS a learning platform. And for coding. The thing here is, that AI is bringing in a big change and that change shall also be represented in how coding is taught, because the methods are simply different now.
The AI is here to assist the people, not replace them (as in: guided help to make you reach more not as in dr. chatgpt did my math homework) and as I read it partially to find snippets of code from others and help you patch them into your work.
I do already practice similar with my own works of coding where I reuse old stuff I wrote like 3 years ago in a new project nowadays.
I see the critique here that people don't want this but I feel like the backpack is the same principle and remixing also. It should be delivered with an unremovable comment block that gives credit.

2.) Some users said that you can just use ChatGPT if you really need help, but I disagree. As I stated in my original post, we have human resources on Scratch to help you out such as the Help with Scripts forum and tutorials. There is no need for AI to spill over into places that were always predominantly human-made.

Some users said xxx… But letÄs have a look. Human resources are always the best way, I couldnt agree more. But they are not infinitely aviable. You can't ask a tutorial questions and help with scripts has neither guaranteed response nor guaranteed quality response. The AI at least has the first of those. Also, the Scratch Tema did not enforce people to use the forums and the forums are kind of on retreat in the moment. This is probably due to them being hard to moderate and the size of the Scratch team. For this reason, a discuss button from the top bar of Scratch (next to explore ideas etc) was removed.

3.) AI is expensive, and notice how Scratch Membership conveniently rolled around when the Scratch Foundation announced that they were going to be making an AI for Scratch? Just sayin'

I agree that AI is expensive and a big step. But I wouldn't make too explicit connections here before anything. I do think that a bit of a shift is happening in Scratch, but a membership that helps support Scratch is, if implemented correctly a fair idea. Also, this topic is about the AI.

4.) This isn't a view on AI related but it's just something I need to address. Please refrain from using AI in this post because you're going to start a flame war and that's just unnecessary and defeats the purpose of this topic. And if someone does use AI, please do not ridicule them for it, you just look like a jerk.

I am a human and not using AI in my replies.

5.) Some AI training models have been under fire for being trained on either copyrighted material or material that it's creator didn't consent to using. How will we know if the people developing this AI for Scratch aren't using usermade projects without their consent? It's unethical regardless of whose the actual owner.

This is a bigger problem here and I don't personally favor big AI companies. However, Scratch doesnt have to follow these patterns. If the Scratch management decides for a way with consent here, this will be ethical. Don't blame the sole existence of AI for this though.

6.) AI can tend to be incorrect or hallucinate. And some AI's, like ChatGPT, really only tell you what you want to hear. And then some AI's like Gemini are really boring and have no personality and tend to just give up and redirect you to Google searches, which sucks.

I agree here. The AI ain't perfect. But neither are humans. In fact, YEAH, you can trick the AI with some things and this looks really goofy but humans are really also weird in function and as easy as the AI victims of misinformations. Also, the humans just make mistakes as well. The fact, that ChatGPT tells you what you want to hear is because it is a commercial product that wants to keep its users active. Scratch does not need to follow this line. The Gemini is the same but it's good for google to redirect you to searching and show you ads.
And I do not think that the AI is supposed to be “fun” here in the sense of: hey chatty, tell me a joke or something. It is mainly a coding tool and not an entertainment robot and therefore supposed to rather be helpful and assisting in programming than your “friend”.

7.) Kids might not understand AI boundaries because they can’t always tell the difference between facts, bots making stuff up, real people giving help, and so on. They trust the computer because “it must be right.” The AI could accidentally teach bad coding habits, misinformation, or encourage dependency. None of that matches Scratch’s mission.

This counts for the entire internet. Also this counts for other people as well. Someone state something (“omg scratch gets an image generator trained off our art” and without fact checking 20 scratch users be panic.

8.) Scratch is supposed to be a safe sandbox, not a tech experiment. Kids come here to learn coding basics, not be beta testers for a foundation’s new AI project. Scratch Team using Scratch kids as guinea pigs for a trendy AI rollout feels morally shaky. If they wanna play with AI, cool — but don’t use children as the testing ground.

I see this point but I do think that this is not an experiment as AI has been round for some while. If the new coding basics include the usage of helping AI, that is how it is. This is not about trends. Also, the AI can be seen as pretty safe and easier to moderate than if we had for example ten times the forum population. This would be a big chaos where dangerous trolls and spammers could be active and unseen. Just pointing this out.

9.) Even if the Scratch Team swears “AI won’t be behind a paywall,” let’s be fr. Services cost money. AI costs SERIOUS money. Membership suddenly appearing at the SAME time isn’t a coincidence. Eventually, features get split: “Basic users get slow AI”, “Members get advanced AI help”, “Members get more AI tokens”, “Members get better project analysis”, “Members get priority moderation”… It creates a two-class system on a platform designed for kids learning to code.

I see the danger you are trying to point out here and I feel like if it went this way it were a serious break with the scratch we used to know alike. However, once again I am not into conspiracies. If the AI is implemented correctly though, then the AI is an equal tool for everyone and the membership keeps out of coding features and sticks with badges, tags and themes like cat blocks. I feel like a harmful and restrictive token system would be definitely a chance, but as I see it, Scratch it is the most likely that sticks to it's values combined with AI, and this will not happen. Remember, that the membership is your way to support this free platform at running by basically donating and they just give a little back, not like YouTube premium with no ads or an AI premium deal. This is a totally different concept.

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

I think people should read my old post. I don't know about doing it like this but I'll just quote myself so this doesnt get buried.
—

People will read it. I read it, just didn't respond. But quoting yourself won't help.

cambegonefr wrote:

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

I think people should read my old post. I don't know about doing it like this but I'll just quote myself so this doesnt get buried.
—

People will read it. I read it, just didn't respond. But quoting yourself won't help.

This is not about enforcing a response but the problem is that the post and points I made will continously be dug up under other posts and we already have 98 pages. Remember this thing was made in august but it exploded in post count and anything in argumentation will be buried, that is why I do this.

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

5.) Some AI training models have been under fire for being trained on either copyrighted material or material that it's creator didn't consent to using. How will we know if the people developing this AI for Scratch aren't using usermade projects without their consent? It's unethical regardless of whose the actual owner.

This is a bigger problem here and I don't personally favor big AI companies. However, Scratch doesnt have to follow these patterns. If the Scratch management decides for a way with consent here, this will be ethical. Don't blame the sole existence of AI for this though.
…

9.) Even if the Scratch Team swears “AI won’t be behind a paywall,” let’s be fr. Services cost money. AI costs SERIOUS money. Membership suddenly appearing at the SAME time isn’t a coincidence. Eventually, features get split: “Basic users get slow AI”, “Members get advanced AI help”, “Members get more AI tokens”, “Members get better project analysis”, “Members get priority moderation”… It creates a two-class system on a platform designed for kids learning to code.

I see the danger you are trying to point out here and I feel like if it went this way it were a serious break with the scratch we used to know alike. However, once again I am not into conspiracies. If the AI is implemented correctly though, then the AI is an equal tool for everyone and the membership keeps out of coding features and sticks with badges, tags and themes like cat blocks. I feel like a harmful and restrictive token system would be definitely a chance, but as I see it, Scratch it is the most likely that sticks to it's values combined with AI, and this will not happen. Remember, that the membership is your way to support this free platform at running by basically donating and they just give a little back, not like YouTube premium with no ads or an AI premium deal. This is a totally different concept.

Indeed, the Scratch Team does not have to follow the same patterns as for-profit companies. They are non-profit after all. But I do worry that this would encourage people to use AIs outside of Scratch. Having an AI in Scratch would imply that using AI for programming is okay, and that talking to a chatbot instead of figuring things out yourself is a good idea.

There is a workflow known as “Vibe Coding,” where the developer asks the AI to write code for them and they simply decide whether or not it looks good instead of strictly reviewing it. As I’m sure you can imagine, this is very dangerous both to security and to your skills. It is particularly dangerous when you do not already know how to code. If their experience with Scratch starts with them using AI, (which is what the AI will probably be helping with) even if they aren’t dependent, there’s danger of becoming dependent when they need help in learning another programming language.

I do realize beginning programmers will still vibe code whether or not Scratch has AI, but adding the AI will definitely increase the prevalence of this, which would be detrimental to Scratchs goal of teaching to code.

Two pages before 100!

Nearly 2000 posts???

Exascerbescence wrote:

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

5.) Some AI training models have been under fire for being trained on either copyrighted material or material that it's creator didn't consent to using. How will we know if the people developing this AI for Scratch aren't using usermade projects without their consent? It's unethical regardless of whose the actual owner.

This is a bigger problem here and I don't personally favor big AI companies. However, Scratch doesnt have to follow these patterns. If the Scratch management decides for a way with consent here, this will be ethical. Don't blame the sole existence of AI for this though.
…

9.) Even if the Scratch Team swears “AI won’t be behind a paywall,” let’s be fr. Services cost money. AI costs SERIOUS money. Membership suddenly appearing at the SAME time isn’t a coincidence. Eventually, features get split: “Basic users get slow AI”, “Members get advanced AI help”, “Members get more AI tokens”, “Members get better project analysis”, “Members get priority moderation”… It creates a two-class system on a platform designed for kids learning to code.

I see the danger you are trying to point out here and I feel like if it went this way it were a serious break with the scratch we used to know alike. However, once again I am not into conspiracies. If the AI is implemented correctly though, then the AI is an equal tool for everyone and the membership keeps out of coding features and sticks with badges, tags and themes like cat blocks. I feel like a harmful and restrictive token system would be definitely a chance, but as I see it, Scratch it is the most likely that sticks to it's values combined with AI, and this will not happen. Remember, that the membership is your way to support this free platform at running by basically donating and they just give a little back, not like YouTube premium with no ads or an AI premium deal. This is a totally different concept.

Indeed, the Scratch Team does not have to follow the same patterns as for-profit companies. They are non-profit after all. But I do worry that this would encourage people to use AIs outside of Scratch. Having an AI in Scratch would imply that using AI for programming is okay, and that talking to a chatbot instead of figuring things out yourself is a good idea.

There is a workflow known as “Vibe Coding,” where the developer asks the AI to write code for them and they simply decide whether or not it looks good instead of strictly reviewing it. As I’m sure you can imagine, this is very dangerous both to security and to your skills. It is particularly dangerous when you do not already know how to code. If their experience with Scratch starts with them using AI, (which is what the AI will probably be helping with) even if they aren’t dependent, there’s danger of becoming dependent when they need help in learning another programming language.

I do realize beginning programmers will still vibe code whether or not Scratch has AI, but adding the AI will definitely increase the prevalence of this, which would be detrimental to Scratchs goal of teaching to code.

This can be prevented and will be prevented. WOrking with the AI for programming is OK if it is your aid and ont programming for you. You will still have to learn how to code, but have to learn how to use the new tools as well. About the “Vibe Coding” workflow, I see it as important to make the AI assistant being able to search sprites and fucntions that fit in your project and help you build them in. But this should obviously go along with the AI explaining steps you have to do and you having to actually do them to integrate the sprite your project and also with it encouraging you to think yourself.

Commercial AIs are built for taking up your time and making you dependent on them (sometimes) and not encouraging users to think themselves and be creative, but this is due to their authors. The Scratch AI does once again not have to fllow this. The AI can be used here in a way that it explains what it brings to you and after teaching you the concepts, you can properly implement it in your work and next time don't even need to ask the AI any more.

Also, obviously, a bit of vibe coding will always happen, AI or not, I absolutely agree there, but that is just one thing with being a beginner.

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

cambegonefr wrote:

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

I think people should read my old post. I don't know about doing it like this but I'll just quote myself so this doesnt get buried.
—

People will read it. I read it, just didn't respond. But quoting yourself won't help.

This is not about enforcing a response but the problem is that the post and points I made will continously be dug up under other posts and we already have 98 pages. Remember this thing was made in august but it exploded in post count and anything in argumentation will be buried, that is why I do this.

I am literally the third post on this topic and am on at least every other page of all 98 pages so best believe your points will be acknowledged! Don't fret, that's just how a forum thread works!

whoops accidentally followed this post now im gonna be slammed with notifications

catgame_png wrote:

whoops accidentally followed this post now im gonna be slammed with notifications

well… can't you unfollow the topic?

d016 wrote:

catgame_png wrote:

whoops accidentally followed this post now im gonna be slammed with notifications

well… can't you unfollow the topic?

yes

Guys um have you seen any AI or is this gonna take a while??? ALSO HHOW ARE GUYS ADDING IMAGES

The_SourKid wrote:

Guys um have you seen any AI or is this gonna take a while??? ALSO HHOW ARE GUYS ADDING IMAGES

It's going to take a while, but they've said that they will eventually add it

cambegonefr wrote:

I am literally the third post on this topic

good for you

and am on at least every other page of all 98 pages

erm akshually page 95

so best believe your points will be acknowledged! Don't fret, that's just how a forum thread works!

We haben't even discussed my points yet.
Also after a really not big ammount of posts after my post what I said is unseen by people who newly attend the topic and I need to reintroduce them to some counter points.

The_SourKid wrote:

Guys um have you seen any AI or is this gonna take a while??? ALSO HHOW ARE GUYS ADDING IMAGES

They have said they will eventually add it, just “not right now”

BitcoinFarmer wrote:

cambegonefr wrote:

I am literally the third post on this topic

good for you

and am on at least every other page of all 98 pages

erm akshually page 95

so best believe your points will be acknowledged! Don't fret, that's just how a forum thread works!

We haben't even discussed my points yet.
Also after a really not big ammount of posts after my post what I said is unseen by people who newly attend the topic and I need to reintroduce them to some counter points.

Do you need me to go over them to make you feel better? Also there are 98 pages on this topic, which is crazy, but expected.

cambegonefr wrote:

We haben't even discussed my points yet.
Also after a really not big ammount of posts after my post what I said is unseen by people who newly attend the topic and I need to reintroduce them to some counter points.
Do you need me to go over them to make you feel better? Also there are 98 pages on this topic, which is crazy, but expected.

Yeah I know that there is 98 pages but I think what I do is necessary.

ALso, go over whom? or what? sorry I am not that good at english and my sense of context is not working right now.

The_SourKid wrote:

Guys um have you seen any AI or is this gonna take a while??? ALSO HHOW ARE GUYS ADDING IMAGES

the ai blocks are still in the scratch labs i think, and i don't think they added any yet.
also you need to paste the url for whatever image you want, and it will show up when you hit send.

5_hours_later wrote:

StarFutureFox wrote:

cookedasparagus8 wrote:

CodeWyrm wrote:

Yeah I read the tos and didn't agree but most people wouldn't.

If you're typing this, you 100% agreed.

Welllll, I didn't read it and now that I know what's going on / have read the part of the tos that actually matters, I also disagree with it but I'm still here typing this because I love Scratch as an AI-free website and I've also made friends with other artists on Scratch who I'd like to keep talking to. So yeah I see what you mean but a lot of people are still here 'cos they got nowhere else to post, made friends, love scratch, want to protest, etc

when green flag clicked
if <[scratch] = [AI-free]> then
broadcast [yayyy v]
end

I didn't read it either. When I heard they were adding this stuff I went the the TOS and I was shocked. I don't know how they expect people to read all of that.

I know right!!! they really did think they could sneak that tiny detail in and sweep it under the rug forever </3