starlightsparker wrote:

I noticed, this has expanded to somewhat guilt tripping. I have seen things similar to “Camp is run on an honor system – we trust that you will act accordingly.”, nowadays.

Sometimes when I'm looking through I deliberately post on them for no reason (I don't read anything but the message though)
———————————————————————————————————————————-
On a more serious note, I've noticed these too. they should be part of the ban as well

MagicCoder330 wrote:

Sometimes when I'm looking through I deliberately post on them for no reason (I don't read anything but the message though)

I also wouldn’t suggest doing that; It’s etiquette to avoid posting on others’ collaboration threads you are uninvited to, unless you have a good reason. And note as well that unconstructive posts are not an exception in this situation.

Since the forums are public, you can read it. But I would avoid posting on them as you do not have a reason to, though it is not explicitly banned.

starlightsparker wrote:

MagicCoder330 wrote:

Sometimes when I'm looking through I deliberately post on them for no reason (I don't read anything but the message though)

I also wouldn’t suggest doing that; It’s etiquette to avoid posting on others’ collaboration threads you are uninvited to, unless you have a good reason. And note as well that unconstructive posts are not an exception in this situation.

Since the forums are public, you can read it. But I would avoid posting on them as you do not have a reason to, though it is not explicitly banned.

Usually I just say that the notice seems passive aggressive (if it just asks me not to post I don't post anyway)

Most of the time I just click things that look interesting, doesn't make me very happy when they tell me not to read it.

Thought I should have some input on this as someone who actively participates in SWC. I'll introduce myself: My name's Luka, she/her, and I've been leading in SWC for some time now, and I've also made topics such as the ones you have seen before. But anywho I just have some comments about this:

The main argument I've seen here is that anti-stalking forums impose false restrictions on scratchers or whatever. This coming in the form of “if you aren't a part of this group and whatnot, then please leave.” The purpose of anti-stalking messages in SWC have always been to warn potential campers of spoiling their camping experience. It also serves as a purpose to ward off unrelated posts which clog up the topic and are honestly quite rude. Which is why a lot of anti-stalking messages encourage people to leave, for their own benefit. Now, no one said that we expect these to be 100% foolproof and to work every time. Warnings are ignored, everyone knows that. The (co)leaders and hosts of SWC, and anyone organizing any scratch camp or any exclusive collaboration project understand this as well. At the end of the day, if you do decide to read through the entire forum, that is up to you. /lh

If the problem you have with anti-stalking messages is about the “please leave” notice, then instead of the passive-aggressive comments I've seen on this thread directed towards us, this issue could just be solved by working with us. I can't gurantee it for every scratch camp here, but I will gladly bring this up to the SWC hosts if that works with he rest of you. I mean, this whole issue is honestly being overdramatized when this is a simple fix that could have been done a long time ago.

In terms of nonspecific forum names, I personally do not see a problem with this, as do a lot of people. They aren't imposing any false restrictions, aren't excluding scratchers, and from what I know they don't break cg's ^^

There was also something brought up about calling people stalkers? Which to me does not make much sense, since it IS technically stalking. Looking at a conversation without one's notice is stalking, and it's common. And there's no need to have a negative emphasis on stalking unless it is breaking some kind of rule of whatever, or just not respecting boundaries.

I also want to point out that no one is guilt tripping anyone. There is an SWC honor system in which we don't want campers to spoil their experiences. If a camper does decide not to follow it, then we won't break our backs over it. And I have never seen this simple message ever offend any campers, and I've been in SWC for 3+ years. I feel that I should specify that the honor system only applies to people who actually participate in SWC. I mean that is why it's called an SWC honor system after all.

Anyway this is getting long haha, my main pont is that those anti-stalking messages are meant to put an emphasis on respect rather than be hostile, and while I do admit I have seen some hostile messages before, instead of completely banning them, we can work on tweaking/setting guidelines so that they do not cause problems ^^ We just want everyone to be respectful.

(And a quick note, I'm starting to see a lot of trolling when it comes to this. As in, people deliberately cross boundaries and post on topics they aren't expected to. This is highly discouraged because at the end of the day, it's about respecting others and yourself, and not being obnoxious. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting unrelated messages to clog up a forum topic when it's for an entirely different purpose)

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

snip

There is a different in saying “If you are not invited to this thread and a part of Camp, then reading this may spoil your experience, so we advise not to do so!” than “STOP STALKING! THIS IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND IT’S GONNA RUIN YOUR EXPERIENCE.”.

If a user wants to read, then they may. It is okay to kindly advise not to read it, but not to rudely “force” (emphasis on quotes) not to read it and to label the reader as a stalker, which this suggestion is mainly about.

starlightsparker wrote:

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

snip

There is a different in saying “If you are not invited to this thread and a part of Camp, then reading this may spoil your experience, so we advise not to do so!” than “STOP STALKING! THIS IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS AND IT’S GONNA RUIN YOUR EXPERIENCE.”.

If a user wants to read, then they may. It is okay to kindly advise not to read it, but not to rudely “force” (emphasis on quotes) not to read it and to label the reader as a stalker, which this suggestion is mainly about.

Like I said in the previous post, we can always tweak those messages so they don't offend anyone inside and outside of said camps ^^ Instead of blowing over the situation, we can all work together on it so it meets Scratch standards instead of both side being passive-aggressive to each other

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

(#164)
Looking at a conversation without one's notice is stalking, and it's common.

We aren't stalking, we're just curious

Also anything you post here is on a public forum, so if you want a private place to write your stuff, use Google docs - once you post something here or anywhere else on the internet for that matter, it's near impossible to get rid of

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

Like I said in the previous post, we can always tweak those messages so they don't offend anyone inside and outside of said camps ^^ Instead of blowing over the situation, we can all work together on it so it meets Scratch standards instead of both side being passive-aggressive to each other

Of course—And kind/unoffending messages are not part of the ban proposed in the suggestion.

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

snip
Like I said in the previous post, we can always tweak those messages so they don't offend anyone inside and outside of said camps ^^ Instead of blowing over the situation, we can all work together on it so it meets Scratch standards instead of both side being passive-aggressive to each other

I think this solution would work best; maybe we should have a sticky about it though, just to raise awareness

It's nice to have an SWC person here so we can know their side, we havent been getting much of that.

8to16 wrote:

once you post something here, it's near impossible to get rid of

That is untrue, though. You can request it to be dustbinned. (Assuming you mean rid from the public eye—Not from Scratch Team.)

starlightsparker wrote:

(#170)

8to16 wrote:

once you post something here, it's near impossible to get rid of

That is untrue, though. You can request it to be dustbinned. (Assuming you mean rid from the public eye—Not from Scratch Team.)

People can screenshot or use the wayback machine

8to16 wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

(#170)

8to16 wrote:

once you post something here, it's near impossible to get rid of

That is untrue, though. You can request it to be dustbinned. (Assuming you mean rid from the public eye—Not from Scratch Team.)

People can screenshot or use the wayback machine

no the wayback machine is down. and screenshots can be faked. also people can request info by removed from archive

8to16 wrote:

or use the wayback machine

Sure—But, if it’s a big enough problem, I’m sure you can likely request it to be removed. At the very, very, least, by GDPR.

undeterminstic wrote:

8to16 wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

(#170)

8to16 wrote:

once you post something here, it's near impossible to get rid of

That is untrue, though. You can request it to be dustbinned. (Assuming you mean rid from the public eye—Not from Scratch Team.)

People can screenshot or use the wayback machine

no the wayback machine is down. and screenshots can be faked

Were getting a bit offtopic here, lets get back to the point.

We have an experienced SWC member here to add to the discussion, I think that's pretty valuable.

From what I understand, our idea here in a nutshell is to make it so that more hostile anti stalking notices are banned, ones that are just spoiler warnings or asking people not to post are OK as long as they aren't passive aggressive. Did I miss anything?

if you’re curious, just read it.

the messages are there as a notice of spoilers / info that could ruin the fun and they aren’t going to stop anybody. reminders of the existence of an honor system are not guilt tripping; the honor system is core to the function of the camp.

but you should not post off topic in someone else’s forum, it’s plain rude. you’ll be ignored, your post will be reported for being off-topic, and you’re the one in the wrong. you’re not proving a point, you’re in the wrong.

opheliio wrote:

if you’re curious, just read it.

the messages are there as a notice of spoilers / info that could ruin the fun and they aren’t going to stop anybody. reminders of the existence of an honor system are not guilt tripping; the honor system is core to the function of the camp.

but you should not post off topic in someone else’s forum, it’s plain rude. you’ll be ignored, your post will be reported for being off-topic, and you’re the one in the wrong. you’re not proving a point, you’re in the wrong.

But not all people know this - and again, the notices come off as passive aggressive.

As for the not posting, I completely agree, I just wanted to bring up that “anti stalking” messages in themselves are often rude too.

MagicCoder330 wrote:

undeterminstic wrote:

8to16 wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

(#170)

8to16 wrote:

once you post something here, it's near impossible to get rid of

That is untrue, though. You can request it to be dustbinned. (Assuming you mean rid from the public eye—Not from Scratch Team.)

People can screenshot or use the wayback machine

no the wayback machine is down. and screenshots can be faked

Were getting a bit offtopic here, lets get back to the point.

We have an experienced SWC member here to add to the discussion, I think that's pretty valuable.

From what I understand, our idea here in a nutshell is to make it so that more hostile anti stalking notices are banned, ones that are just spoiler warnings or asking people not to post are OK as long as they aren't passive aggressive. Did I miss anything?

Kind of. The suggestion is to ban warnings that tell people they are not allowed to simply look at a topic if they aren't specific people or groups.

“Please don't post here” notices and spoiler warnings do not count.

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

(#164)
-snip-
this issue could just be solved by working with us. I can't gurantee it for every scratch camp here, but I will gladly bring this up to the SWC hosts if that works with he rest of you. I mean, this whole issue is honestly being overdramatized when this is a simple fix that could have been done a long time ago.
-snip-

That only solves the SWC side of the problem, what about other collaborations in general?

o97doge wrote:

That only solves the SWC side of the problem, what about other collaborations in general?

that i cannot control in general, but working on the SWC part of it first is a good start ^^ and arguably a lot of anti-stalking messages apply to scratch camps

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

(#164)
-snip-
this issue could just be solved by working with us. I can't gurantee it for every scratch camp here, but I will gladly bring this up to the SWC hosts if that works with he rest of you. I mean, this whole issue is honestly being overdramatized when this is a simple fix that could have been done a long time ago.
-snip-

Oringal post was vague but this summary helped me understand
Support because these are really annoying and non helpful