Cached Variables!! [Saved Games!] / Locally Saved Variables

epninja

( It seems like generally, people are in support of this!)

This is something I'd be very interested in.

Variables that would cache into the user's browser, so setting the variables, and the value that the variables contain is both written and read from the cache, meaning that they retain the same value to the user as they last time they went on it. This would be useful for projects such as games, for personal highscores and even saved games, so that players could continue from where they left off.

Other uses could be ideas like saved images in drawing/art programs, saved passwords and accounts in OS projects. There would be quite a lot of useful uses for cached variables.

In the end, they would just do exactly how flash games save your data, so you can continue later.

I do hope something like this is considered! Thanks Scratch team!

I believe that new locally saved variables would be very useful for the Scratcher community, as my friend LFOB said:

LFOB wrote:
It could mean saving games would become standard, making it possible for people like me to create larger games without having to worry about limiting the total play time.

Larger scale Scratch games can be very daunting projects to play, as they require time, hours perhaps, and not many have that time, meaning games go unfinished and the full experience is, well, not experienced. With saving you could play the game in short bursts, save your progress and continue at another time, this would encourage people to play the games and with accessibility encourage people to make more ambitious, bigger games, like my favourite genre, the RPG. Great games such as Evanescent, Spectrum 2, Kid's Quest and my own EPNinjaObjective suffer from this, as they all rely on the player having the dedication to sit down for at least an hour to play through the whole game. With saving, people would be encouraged to play more, and more Scratchers would be willing to make larger ambitious games knowing that people would actually play them.

Griffpatch's Github topic in support of this!

Note: THESE VARIABLES CANNOT BE USED TO HACK YOUR ACCOUNT OR YOUR COMPUTER. These locally saved variables will not be able to mess with your computer, all they will do keep a value for use within projects, like a normal variable, that is all. It could be the number 5, the name “Fred”, “Yes” or “No”, or whatever is needed for the project, it will not affect your computer or your browser. They would not be able to mess with your cache, just store things in them. So don't worry about projects deleting all your cookies for other sites, as they wouldn't be able to do that, or them doing anything else with it. It'll contain data useful for the project it's for only, nothing more.

Note 2: These cached variables are nothing like Cloud Variables. They are not used for communicative purposes, you will not be able to communicate with other Scratchers, so there is no way you can offend another Scratcher. All they will do is retain a value for use in the project, so they aren't reset every time you load the project. There is no need to moderate or restrict them, they're just normal variables. You could even use them without logging in, as it just concerns the project and the computer, not the Scratch account. They wouldn't be able to contain offensive words, otherwise it would be within the code of the project, which we can see with “SEE INSIDE”, just like a normal variable, and we can report that. We would still be able to see what's contained within the variable if we show it, just like a normal variable. If it were to ever contain an offensive word, it would be because the user/player entered the word themselves, in that case it's not the fault of the project but the user, but the SAME CAN BE DONE WITH NORMAL VARIABLES. If someone find swear words popping up in your computer's cookies, then it can only the fault of the user who put the swear word in!! Not the project's fault, or the person who made the project (As they cannot put swear words into the code of the project anyway), or the Scratch Team. It's on your own computer, so it's nobody else's responsibility than your own. Plus it's on the user's own computer, which is outside Scartch's responsibilities, no one can complain of finding inappropriate data they put on there themselves. Therefore I do not see the problem.

Note 3: there shouldn't be an issue of having to ask the user for permission to store data, as if a flash object can do that the flash player automatically prompts the user if it can store data, just like how it requests to use your microphone and webcam, of course if the Scratch Team wants extra security, they could put a second prompt in, but since it already prompts the user with the flash player, it shouldn't be necessary.

Note 4: Of course, there would be a limit to the amount of local variables you can have on a project, otherwise someone could make as many as they can, and users would find so many cookie files on their computers.

EDIT:
I know this can already be done with Cloud Variables, however it is extremely inefficient and difficult to do, especially for newer Scratchers. Also, internet connection aren't the most reliable for a lot of people, perhaps what if their internet goes down in the middle of playing? Plus the cloud variables themselves aren't the most reliable either, as many problems have occurred with my use of cloud variables in projects.

Cloud variables are also extremely limited, they have a max amount of characters they can store, and if they have to store the data for all Scratchers who go on, it's just impossible. And what if it was something like an RPG, where you'd be storing data like 100 characters per Scratcher, it all won't simply it into the cloud variables. With locally saved variables, you would only need to save data for one person, which is a lot more efficient. It also means you don't have to program all the complex Cloud List processes.

And what about those who can't use Cloud Variables like New Scratchers?

For something as small as just being to keep data, it's a very difficult task with cloud variables. It would be a lot more efficient and more easily accessible with locally saved variables.

Alternatively, here is another suggestion by another Scratcher:

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
I have a better idea, rather than storing cached vars as cookies (which makes people complain about spam), “cached” vars should actually be stored with each Scratch user's account info on the Scratch server. That way, Scratchers can continue playing games even on other computers. To prevent spam on the Scratch servers, the same New Scratcher policy should be applied, and of course there will be a size limit on cached vars. If the vars get out of hand, Scratch should notify you
Uh oh! It looks like your account is out of cached variable space! Delete some of your old cached variables to continue:

[ ] [ Derp project 1 ]
[ X ] [ Epic game ]
[ ] [ Derp Swag ]
____________________________________________________________________
[ Delete and continue ] [ Don't delete and disable cached variables for now ]

And I also think Scratch should notify you about cloud data and cached variables just like it does for the username block
Warning: This project uses cloud data, which means it can communicate with Scratch servers. This may be useful for multiplayer games, opinion polls, and some other things. If you want this feature disabled, click the button below.
[ Dismiss ] [ Disable cloud data for this session ]
Warning: This project uses cached variables, which means it store data (such as save games) that it can access when you visit this project again. If you don't want this feature, click the button below.
[ Dismiss ] [ Disable cached variables for this session ]
Warning: This project uses the username block, which means it can see what your username is. It cannot see any other information about you, other than your your username. However, if you want this feature disabled, click the button below.
[ Dismiss ] [ Replace my username with ‘Anonymous’ for this session ]

Last edited by epninja (April 3, 2015 16:56:21)

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

Superdoggy

This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

Zro716

Superdoggy wrote:
As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

right, but with several users writing to the cloud at once, it can sometimes cause collisions and mishaps. like in my internetz game, I frequently get complaints about data not being saved correctly, and when I investigate it comes down to two or more users saving data at the same time. so a cloud list is not a foolproof option for per-player saved data.

cookie variables sound like a very good idea, but there needs to be some kind of restriction to prevent unlimited storage of data to a browser's cache.

As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.

epninja

Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

Yes, but it involves very complex cloud lists, and they're limited, they can't support everyone. And not everyone knows how to make cloud lists, and not everyone can use cloud variables either. And when constantly written to, cloud variables can get pretty buggy. Cached variables would be a much better way of doing it.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

PaganoLeo10

Massive support (support +9e+99999999999999999999999999999)

Last edited by PaganoLeo10 (Feb. 6, 2015 23:43:12)

Moving on from Scratch? Learn a C derivative or Java.
Please give me an internet (Yes, I am UnitedUntitled.) In return you get a slogan.
“Scratch is awesome” 43 translations later with Yandex we get “What is good”.

Being awesome, staying awesome. -PaganoLeo10

Superdoggy

epninja wrote:
Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

Yes, but it involves very complex cloud lists, and they're limited, they can't support everyone. And not everyone knows how to make cloud lists, and not everyone can use cloud variables either. And when constantly written to, cloud variables can get pretty buggy. Cached variables would be a much better way of doing it.

Hmm… well I'm not sure I like the idea of Scratch storing user-created cookies in my browser. If people learn to hack them (like cloud variables) then that could lead to major security problems.

But anyway, assuming that those issues could be ironed out, I'd guess that they'd still probably be about as reliable as cloud variables - as they'd be susceptible to other issues, such as a user clearing their cache, or even something as in miscommunication between the Scratch player and different types of browsers.

Cloud lists are often buggy, yes, but you can use certain methods to reduce that buggy-ness down to a minimum. Also you can use cloud lists made by other Scratchers, such as @Lirex 's. I personally like toying with the idea of a “in_use” variable that could be used to avoid cloud data collisions. Also, as long as the game is only saving per user only every time they make progress and press a save button, then that reduces corruption even more. You can also save backups of the data every week or so to avoid problems with resetting.

Hope this helps! -Superdoggy

Last edited by Superdoggy (Feb. 7, 2015 01:01:18)

epninja

Superdoggy wrote:
epninja wrote:
Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

Yes, but it involves very complex cloud lists, and they're limited, they can't support everyone. And not everyone knows how to make cloud lists, and not everyone can use cloud variables either. And when constantly written to, cloud variables can get pretty buggy. Cached variables would be a much better way of doing it.

Hmm… well I'm not sure I like the idea of Scratch storing user-created cookies in my browser. If people learn to hack them (like cloud variables) then that could lead to major security problems.

But anyway, assuming that those issues could be ironed out, I'd guess that they'd still probably be about as reliable as cloud variables - as they'd be susceptible to other issues, such as a user clearing their cache, or even something as in miscommunication between the Scratch player and different types of browsers.

Cloud lists are often buggy, yes, but you can use certain methods to reduce that buggy-ness down to a minimum. Also you can use cloud lists made by other Scratchers, such as @Lirex 's. I personally like toying with the idea of a “in_use” variable that could be used to avoid cloud data collisions. Also, as long as the game is only saving per user only every time they make progress and press a save button, then that reduces corruption even more. You can also save backups of the data every week or so to avoid problems with resetting.

Hope this helps! -Superdoggy

They would just be as simple as how Flash games work to make saved games for your flash games, of course if you clear your cookies, then it's gone, but that's the user's fault, not the project's or Scratch itself. But yeah, it would be a lot more simpler for less experienced users to be able to use these variables. Also, this would work for those Scratchers who are unable to use cloud variables such as New Scratchers, they would be able to save their game with local saved variables.

Plus what if the saved game was being something like an RPG, so much data needs saving, maybe even like 100 characters per Scartcher, variables are very limited in how many characters they can store, they wouldn't be able to hold the data for every single Scratcher in the world, it would very quickly max out, even if you spread it over multiple cloud variables, that's why it would be better to have a cookied variable in your browser to hold that data, per Scratcher. That being said: Local Cookied Lists would be useful too.

Plus Scratch already does optimisation for different browsers. I'm not saying this should be a short term addition, perhaps something that would come. With time I'm sure they'd be able to optimise it to work with at least the main browsers people use, like Internet Explorer, Safari, Chrome and Firefox.

And many websites create cookies anyway. The Scratch site itself already creates a cookie just to keep you logged in. I don't see what's wrong with it. They would just be very limited to Scratch projects, they wouldn't do anything other than be a memory location for in project Scratch variables and nothing more than that. They wouldn't hold data worth hacking.

Cloud variables are very limited in this aspect of use, this suggestion would make it a lot easier for people.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

MrSherlockHolmes

epninja wrote:
This is something I'd be very interested in.

Variables that would cache into the user's browser, so setting the variables, and the value that the variables contain is both written and read from the cache, meaning that they retain the same value to the user as they last time they went on it. This would be useful for projects such as games, for personal highscores and even saved games, so that players could continue from where they left off.

Other uses could be ideas like saved images in drawing/art programs, saved passwords and accounts in OS projects. There would be quite a lot of useful uses for cached variables.

I do hope something like this is considered!

Well, when cloud lists are introduced, there'll be no need. However, it sounds like a good extension project

set [>>☁ v] to (10) for (username) :: variables

Last edited by MrSherlockHolmes (Feb. 7, 2015 14:36:25)

Centred signature.

epninja

MrSherlockHolmes wrote:
epninja wrote:
This is something I'd be very interested in.

Variables that would cache into the user's browser, so setting the variables, and the value that the variables contain is both written and read from the cache, meaning that they retain the same value to the user as they last time they went on it. This would be useful for projects such as games, for personal highscores and even saved games, so that players could continue from where they left off.

Other uses could be ideas like saved images in drawing/art programs, saved passwords and accounts in OS projects. There would be quite a lot of useful uses for cached variables.

I do hope something like this is considered!
Well, when cloud lists are introduced, there'll be no need. However, it sounds like a good extension project
set [>>☁ v] to (10) for (username) :: variables

Even if we had cloud lists, I still think locally saved cached variables would be a lot more efficient with this specific task.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

MushroomMan99

Support.

Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

But doing that is really complicated. We need a simpler way to do it.
This would be much easier with cloud lists, though.

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end
if <(language) = [French ]> then
    
say [Tout est super-genial!] for (2) secs
end
if <(language) = [Italian ]> then
    
say [E meraviglioso!] for (2) secs
end
if <(language) = [Spanish ]> then

say [Todo es fabuloso!] for (2) secs    
end

epninja

MushroomMan99 wrote:
Support.
Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.
But doing that is really complicated. We need a simpler way to do it.
This would be much easier with cloud lists, though.

And even more efficient with locally saved variables.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

PrincessPanda_test_

Support!

epninja

MrSherlockHolmes wrote:
epninja wrote:
This is something I'd be very interested in.

Variables that would cache into the user's browser, so setting the variables, and the value that the variables contain is both written and read from the cache, meaning that they retain the same value to the user as they last time they went on it. This would be useful for projects such as games, for personal highscores and even saved games, so that players could continue from where they left off.

Other uses could be ideas like saved images in drawing/art programs, saved passwords and accounts in OS projects. There would be quite a lot of useful uses for cached variables.

I do hope something like this is considered!
Well, when cloud lists are introduced, there'll be no need. However, it sounds like a good extension project
set [>>☁ v] to (10) for (username) :: variables

Oh, I think there'll still be a need. Please read my edit.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

LFOB

I really see no problem with this and I think it would be a great addition to Scratch.
Though (as many Scratchers have taken the liberty to point out), this can, however painstakingly, be done with the use of cloud variables. However, using this method of saving games is not only incredibly complex and time-consuming, it's also extremely unreliable due to the nature of Cloud Variables.
Adding Cached variables would create a simple, effective way for users to do a lot more with a lot less effort. Not only would it mean saving games would become standard, making it possible for people like me to create larger games without having to worry about limiting the total play time, it would also make it possible to use cloud variables for more unique purposes while reserving cached variables for saving content only relevant locally to the user, for example a Pokémon style game where you can play it on your own, training your team and then use cloud variables to battle against other users, without having to limit the amount of features by clogging up the cloud variable limit with information relating only to each individual player.
Over all, while cached variables wouldn't open up that many immediately apparent new opportunities, they would make everything a whole lot simpler and more accessible for New Scratchers and experienced Scratchers alike.

epninja

epninja wrote:
This is something I'd be very interested in.

Variables that would cache into the user's browser, so setting the variables, and the value that the variables contain is both written and read from the cache, meaning that they retain the same value to the user as they last time they went on it. This would be useful for projects such as games, for personal highscores and even saved games, so that players could continue from where they left off.

Other uses could be ideas like saved images in drawing/art programs, saved passwords and accounts in OS projects. There would be quite a lot of useful uses for cached variables.

I do hope something like this is considered! Thanks Scratch team!

I believe that new locally saved variables would be very useful for the Scratcher community, as my friend LFOB said:
LFOB wrote:
It could mean saving games would become standard, making it possible for people like me to create larger games without having to worry about limiting the total play time.

Larger scale Scratch games can be very daunting projects to play, as they require time, hours perhaps, and not many have that time, meaning games go unfinished and the full experience is, well, not experienced. With saving you could play the game in short bursts, save your progress and continue at another time, this would encourage people to play the games and with accessibility encourage people to make more ambitious, bigger games, like my favourite genre, the RPG. Great games such as Evanescent, Spectrum 2, Kid's Quest and my own EPNinjaObjective suffer from this, as they all rely on the player having the dedication to sit down for at least an hour to play through the whole game. With saving, people would be encouraged to play more, and more Scratchers would be willing to make larger ambitious games knowing that people would actually play them.

EDIT:
I know this can already be done with Cloud Variables, however it is extremely inefficient and difficult to do, especially for newer Scratchers. Also, internet connection aren't the most reliable for a lot of people, perhaps what if their internet goes down in the middle of playing? Plus the cloud variables themselves aren't the most reliable either, as many problems have occurred with my use of cloud variables in projects.

Cloud variables are also extremely limited, they have a max amount of characters they can store, and if they have to store the data for all Scratchers who go on, it's just impossible. And what if it was something like an RPG, where you'd be storing data like 100 characters per Scratcher, it all won't simply it into the cloud variables. With locally saved variables, you would only need to save data for one person, which is a lot more efficient. It also means you don't have to program all the complex Cloud List processes.

And what about those who can't use Cloud Variables like New Scratchers?

For something as small as just being to keep data, it's a very difficult task with cloud variables. It would be a lot more efficient and more easily accessible with locally saved variables.

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

Zro716

so what would a cache variable look like, if one were to distinguish it from normal variables?
what would be the maximum number of cache variables?
do cache variables allow non-numeric characters?
would there be a way to block storing cache variables?
if a user does not have cache variables, how would the project know?
what would the project do to retrieve the cached variables?
will it prompt the user before it stores cache variables?
would New Scratchers be allowed to use cache variables?
how would the ST moderate inappropriate cache variables if they don't have access to them?
alluding to the previous question, would there be a log of cache variable activity?
what would the raw cache variable data look like? (actually I'll give a suggestion below)

——–
so I think cache variables should be stored as JSON text files, in this format:

{
  "username": "Zro716",
  "project-id": "11223344",
  "variables": {"bob": "123", "potato": "1337", "swag": "024"},
  "cached": "Feb 7 2015 13:37:42"
}

Last edited by Zro716 (Feb. 7, 2015 18:00:53)

As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.

epninja

Zro716 wrote:
so what would a cache variable look like, if one were to distinguish it from normal variables?
what would be the maximum number of cache variables?
do cache variables allow non-numeric characters?
would there be a way to block storing cache variables?
if a user does not have cache variables, how would the project know?
what would the project do to retrieve the cached variables?
will it prompt the user before it stores cache variables?
would New Scratchers be allowed to use cache variables?
how would the ST moderate inappropriate cache variables if they don't have access to them?
alluding to the previous question, would there be a log of cache variable activity?
what would the raw cache variable data look like? (actually I'll give a suggestion below)

1) Well, of course they'd do something to distinguish it. My personal design suggestion would perhaps be a different colour as opposed to the orange, or have a special symbol for it, just like cloud variables.

2) Well, it would be nice to make as many as you want, just like normal variables. But I guess 8, just like Cloud Variables would be fine.

3) Of course they would allow for non-numeric numbers, they only did that with Cloud Variables to discourage people from making chat rooms.

4) Like any flash player game, you can block the storing of cookies through your browser settings.

5) Well, the method would be that the project checks if the variables already exist in the user's cache, if not create them.

6) I'm not the best programmer, so I don't really know how they'd work, but I guess it'd work the same as many flash player stuff out there. It would be the exact same process as how the browser remembers your username and password if you set it to remember when you login to the Scratch website.

7) Well, it's up to the Scratch Team if they want to prompt the user or not, just as they inform the user that a project uses cloud variables.

8) New Scratchers would yes, I would say even those who are not logged in would be able to as well, since it's the local cache, it's not associated to a Scratch account, so if a project used local variables they would work with anyone. They just made it so New Scratchers are limited to thing such as not being able to use Cloud Variables to discourage people making duplicate accounts, so it's up to the Scratch Team really.

9) Cached Variables wouldn't need moderating, there was only concern for moderating Cloud Variables because it involved Scratchers communicating with each other, so in things like chatrooms, they wanted to stop people being able to offend another person. With cached variables, you're not communicating with any other person. It would work just like a normal variable, except it stays the same every time you go on the project. So there's no need to moderate it, as you can't communicate with cached variables.

10) I guess if the Scratch Team wanted to they could create a database log to be kept within the user's computer of all uses of cached variables.

11) Again, I'm not a programmer in this field, I don't know.

In conclusion, I felt a lot of these questions weren't really useful. A lot of these were not something for me to decide, but rather a design choice for the Scratch Team to decide themselves if they ever decided to implement the idea. All I'm doing is getting the idea out there.

Plus there's a big difference between this and Cloud Variables. These aren't used to communicate between Scratchers, just between the computer and the project, just so that the variables are kept the same uniquely to the user. There is no need to moderate or restrict them as they are not used for communicative purposes, they cannot be used to offend another Scratcher, since it doesn't not involve other Scratchers. They're just normal variables, just instead of them getting reset every time you load the project, they retain the same values as they contained the last time the unique Scratcher goes on it. And it doesn't need to be Scratchers too, since the data just involves the user's computer, so anybody would be able to have cached variables stored on their computer, regardless of whether they are logged in or not.

Last edited by epninja (Feb. 7, 2015 19:52:09)

- epninja / eshinobip || Youtube Channel / Website / Deviantart

Rex208

Superdoggy wrote:
This can already be done, like through cloud variables.

See Ultimate Game Creator 5 by Yllie and Cloud Platformer Multiplayer Fun v1.11 by Griffpatch. As long as you do it right, cloud variables are a very effective method of saved games.

Not everyone is a rocket scientist. Coding that is hard.

Support.

butterflygirl2

That would help me a lot. Just one question, what is a cache? (I am not too good with computers.)

Hi!

aidanmoo16

I give this suggestion support

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