Strengthen Scratch Team-Community Link

_Paymer

Many things such as 2D lists or BigNum have been either rejected for being too complex for Scratch's design goals, which are to simplify coding for beginners, or simply get ghosted for whole decades. Ironically, the addition of these “complex” blocks would actually make Scratch easier to use. For example, 2D lists could be used for character mapping, game storage, etc. Isn't this a contradiction?

Swathes of suggestions like Transformations have been ignored, often for multiple years or so. Even the most fitting suggestions for Scratch Design Goals, such as high contrast, were delayed by years. Some of these suggestions actually do take lots of development time for Scratch Team, and they do need to spend their time efficiently, as they do not have many workers. However, a lot of them take minutes to add. Small extensions, existing functionality in JavaScript, just one more block. This conflicts with the perspective that Scratch Team is always too busy to do anything. Isn't this a contradiction?

The suggestion of this post is to strengthen the link between community and Scratch Team, as it seems that it has degraded too much overtime. Roadmaps of feature updates, transparency, progress updates, sneak peeks and community votes could help so much. These excuses are the product of opaqueness and perceived laziness, which is hindering how Scratch adapts with the real world. For Scratch to thrive like a good platform, it has to listen to us, the community. Scratch was built on openness, collaboration, creativity and listening to kids/educators voices. Why sideline our voices for suspicious additions like Scratch Membership that we could perceive as greed, monetization and disrespect?

However, it seems that this topic will get buried in the massive sea of other posts again. But we shouldn't let this happen. We should be making petitions and sending organized emails to Scratch Team, all asking for the same thing: To listen to your community.

CodeComet6161

Many things such as 2D lists or BigNum have been either rejected for being too complex for Scratch's design goals, which are to simplify coding for beginners, or simply get ghosted for whole decades. Ironically, the addition of these “complex” blocks would actually make Scratch easier to use. For example, 2D lists could be used for character mapping, game storage, etc. Isn't this a contradiction?

Scratch is supposed to be a beginner's platform. Sure, it might make it easier, but there's a difference between “easy” and “easier to”.

Swathes of suggestions like Transformations have been ignored, often for multiple years or so. Even the most fitting suggestions for Scratch Design Goals, such as high contrast, were delayed by years. Some of these suggestions actually do take lots of development time for Scratch Team, and they do need to spend their time efficiently, as they do not have many workers. However, a lot of them take minutes to add. Small extensions, existing functionality in JavaScript, just one more block. This conflicts with the perspective that Scratch Team is always too busy to do anything. Isn't this a contradiction?

Please, each member has other things to do such as responding to reports, or fixing bugs. They also have a life outside of the world of technology, so just please don't rush them.

The suggestion of this post is to strengthen the link between community and Scratch Team, as it seems that it has degraded too much overtime. Roadmaps of feature updates, transparency, progress updates, sneak peeks and community votes could help so much. These excuses are the product of opaqueness and perceived laziness, which is hindering how Scratch adapts with the real world. For Scratch to thrive like a good platform, it has to listen to us, the community. Scratch was built on openness, collaboration, creativity and listening to kids/educators voices. Why sideline our voices for suspicious additions like Scratch Membership that we could perceive as greed, monetization and disrespect?

Most of the members are out on weekends, except for ones doing forum duty. Such would be taking a lot of time and resources to stay up, which is the point of the membership; to get more resources.

However, it seems that this topic will get buried in the massive sea of other posts again. But we shouldn't let this happen. We should be making petitions and sending organized emails to Scratch Team, all asking for the same thing: To listen to your community.

What do you think the suggestions forum is for? They listen to suggestions there. They also listen to feedback on Scratch Lab.

And I'm pretty sure Suggestions isn't the place to start movements.

ywc2

This is an interesting suggestion, one I can totally understand.
I feel like the main reason people move away from scratch (like me) are because at some point scratch's symple features start getting too annoying to use in complex projects.

Adding more complex blocks and the such would be very useful on many projects, with honestly little cost.
I've often supported the “keep scratch simple for kids” argument, but on closer inspection there's a big hole in that idea:

Scratch already has complex blocks, for instance the log() function. (which I myself do not understand currently)
When I was new to Scratch as an elementary schooler, the inclusion of these complex and baffling blocks… honestly could not matter less to me.

Don't understand it?
then it's not 8-year-old-me's problem.

Of course, filling the palette with tons and tons of scary-looking blocks might have a negative impact, but otherwise it'll be something that almost nobody will mind.

Here's an idea: perhaps said new blocks could be in an “advanced” extension or something of the like? This way it will literally have no impact unless the user enables it (like pen).

The scratch team really does seem to have a lot on their hands, I can't remember the last time they added a new block. (oh right face sensing is a thing now, but still)

They've had things like the cloud variable bugs for years that they're struggling to fix, so I feel like capacity is the biggest issue here. Hopefully the scratch team will eventually add some of these ideas if and when they have the time.

AndPherbCodes

I completely agree. We SHOULD have an “advanced blocks” extension, and I feel really frustrated that (and though I understand it) ST won't tell us what features are and aren't being considered. Also, face sensing is stupid. It opens only a few opportunities, and doesn't make Scratch any better.

_Paymer

CodeComet6161 wrote:
-snip-

1. A lot of people learning to code often already understand the basics of programming. Scratch is a beginners programming language, but it is also designed for all ages and types of people, so it should fit with that. Beginners usually ignore complex blocks as baffling as they are and only focus on what they know. This is also the reason why Scratch Jr. exists, for beginners that can't understand all the complex blocks. Also, isn't it confusing how Scratch already has math blocks like tan or 10^ yet refuses to implement slightly more complex blocks?
2. We do understand that Scratch Team are humans and have to work on other things. Some of these features take up lots of time. However, a lot of them actually take 5 minutes at most.
3. At the moment, Scratch Membership is being met with a lot of criticism not because it's paid, but because of its perks. The extra sprites and lessons on storytelling are fine for a membership, but the cat ears could actually be used for bullying, as Members could flex their perks on other Scratchers that do not have the membership. Also, it is pretty unfair to hold the cat blocks behind a paywall, they should just serve their one purpose on April Fools day. These 2 perks are the reason why the community is hating on the membership. Also, with the coming of a new AI assistant in Scratch 4.0, many feel that the AI could be monetized too, which is part of the backlash.
4. Not to be rude but, explain the thousands of suggestions buried in the Suggestions forum. Custom reporters. Exponents. More keybinds. And thousands more… There aren't many other places where this topic could fit.

ywc2

I personally support the idea of adding more complex blocks in some shape or form, but the scratch team probably has too much on their hands to make all of this.

We shouldn't make too many assumptions, but I'd say the scratch team has a fairly large amount of things to manage right now. Even if some of these features seem easy to make, we don't fully understand the process of these things. It could be as easy as adding new block data and corresponding Javascript, or if their backends are less efficient it could mean having to change over a dozen files to add a single block (been there, done that, webdev is pain).

I hope that with Scratch Membership and other things, we could get the funding to help the scratch team actually get more people and make progress on things.

Za-Chary

_Paymer wrote:
Many things such as 2D lists or BigNum have been either rejected for being too complex for Scratch's design goals, which are to simplify coding for beginners, or simply get ghosted for whole decades. Ironically, the addition of these “complex” blocks would actually make Scratch easier to use. […] Isn't this a contradiction?

No, because “Easier to create certain types of projects” is not the same thing as “Easier to use the editor.” The Scratch Team is primarily focused on the latter, which makes sense because Scratch is intended for beginner programmers. Too many blocks, and a new user would get overwhelmed and not even attempt to learn. As such, there needs to be a balance: there should be enough blocks for a new user to get started, but not so many that a new user gets overwhelmed.

_Paymer wrote:
1. A lot of people learning to code often already understand the basics of programming. Scratch is a beginners programming language, but it is also designed for all ages and types of people, so it should fit with that.

But many people learning to code do not understand the basics of programming. Scratch's primary goal is to help with this. The idea that Scratch is designed for all ages and all types of people is true, but that doesn't mean Scratch needs to be more complicated to cater to experienced programmers. It just means that the existing Scratch editor should be able to be understood by all ages and all types of people — which is already true (even if it looks basic to some people).

_Paymer wrote:
2. We do understand that Scratch Team are humans and have to work on other things. Some of these features take up lots of time. However, a lot of them actually take 5 minutes at most.

Have you happened to read the development is hard essay, written by a web developer here on Scratch? Development on a community/editor as large as Scratch certainly takes plenty of time. I have a hard time believing certain features take 5 minutes to implement.

_Paymer wrote:
Swathes of suggestions like Transformations have been ignored, often for multiple years or so. Even the most fitting suggestions for Scratch Design Goals, such as high contrast, were delayed by years. Some of these suggestions actually do take lots of development time for Scratch Team, and they do need to spend their time efficiently, as they do not have many workers.

This should further suggest to you that development is not as easy as it may seem.

_Paymer wrote:
However, a lot of them take minutes to add. Small extensions, existing functionality in JavaScript, just one more block. This conflicts with the perspective that Scratch Team is always too busy to do anything. Isn't this a contradiction?

No, for the reasons stated above. If I have a school project due tomorrow, I am going to spend my day doing that. Yes, I could probably wipe down my kitchen counter … and my bedroom desk and dresser could use a little dusting … and I guess I have some laundry to do … and taking a walk outside wouldn't hurt … and I have grocery shopping to do … and it's always good to check in with my friends … etc., etc., … But I have to prioritize the school project. All of the things I've listed don't take very long, but if I did all of these today, then I'd have significantly less time to work on my school project which needs to get done. So I have to prioritize the larger issues. The problem is, sometimes, once I finish a school project then another one gets assigned, and now the cycle repeats …

gem1001

Za-Chary wrote:
_Paymer wrote:
2. We do understand that Scratch Team are humans and have to work on other things. Some of these features take up lots of time. However, a lot of them actually take 5 minutes at most.
Have you happened to read the development is hard essay, written by a web developer here on Scratch? Development on a community/editor as large as Scratch certainly takes plenty of time. I have a hard time believing certain features take 5 minutes to implement.

The exponent block, maybe.

IndexErrorException

ywc2 wrote:
This is an interesting suggestion, one I can totally understand.
I feel like the main reason people move away from scratch (like me) are because at some point scratch's symple features start getting too annoying to use in complex projects.

Adding more complex blocks and the such would be very useful on many projects, with honestly little cost.
I've often supported the “keep scratch simple for kids” argument, but on closer inspection there's a big hole in that idea:

Scratch already has complex blocks, for instance the log() function. (which I myself do not understand currently)
When I was new to Scratch as an elementary schooler, the inclusion of these complex and baffling blocks… honestly could not matter less to me.

Don't understand it?
then it's not 8-year-old-me's problem.

Of course, filling the palette with tons and tons of scary-looking blocks might have a negative impact, but otherwise it'll be something that almost nobody will mind.

Here's an idea: perhaps said new blocks could be in an “advanced” extension or something of the like? This way it will literally have no impact unless the user enables it (like pen).

The scratch team really does seem to have a lot on their hands, I can't remember the last time they added a new block. (oh right face sensing is a thing now, but still)

They've had things like the cloud variable bugs for years that they're struggling to fix, so I feel like capacity is the biggest issue here. Hopefully the scratch team will eventually add some of these ideas if and when they have the time.

log basically allows you to solve basic exponential equations. In this form:

10^x = y

log(y) = x

10^2 = 100

log(100) = 2

IndexErrorException

I am not sure what the ST is doing. They are for sure understaffed, underpaid and overworked but I see things that don't make sense.

They focus on ‘pointless’ stuff: Face sensing, implementing AI, changing the color of the website, and more.

For the majority of users of Scratch those features aren't useful at all. Not hating, its just the truth, they're experiments if anything.

Scratch has several outstanding suggestions that have been suggested before many people in this forum have even been born. The exponent report block has atleast been mentioned since 2013. Most suggestions can take a couple minutes at most to implement in the code.

CodeComet6161

IndexErrorException wrote:
They focus on ‘pointless’ stuff: Face sensing, implementing AI, changing the color of the website, and more.

By saying that, you're basically saying “accessibility is pointless.”

For the majority of users of Scratch those features aren't useful at all. Not hating, its just the truth, they're experiments if anything.

Well for some people that actually LIKE creativity, they are useful.

Scratch has several outstanding suggestions that have been suggested before many people in this forum have even been born. The exponent report block has atleast been mentioned since 2013. Most suggestions can take a couple minutes at most to implement in the code.

ST has to really consider a suggesting before even doing a single thing to implement.

_Paymer

BuMp

ywc2

IndexErrorException wrote:
I am not sure what the ST is doing. They are for sure understaffed, underpaid and overworked but I see things that don't make sense.

They focus on ‘pointless’ stuff: Face sensing, implementing AI, changing the color of the website, and more.

For the majority of users of Scratch those features aren't useful at all. Not hating, its just the truth, they're experiments if anything.

Scratch has several outstanding suggestions that have been suggested before many people in this forum have even been born. The exponent report block has atleast been mentioned since 2013. Most suggestions can take a couple minutes at most to implement in the code.

I would like to add that the color change was for accessibility- purple has a better contrast than blue and is more visible to people that have vision problems.

I can see why kids would want to have face sensing and AI, those things are actually interesting to Scratch's target audience.

Gabrielklein103

CodeComet6161 wrote:
Please, each member has other things to do such as responding to reports, or fixing bugs. They also have a life outside of the world of technology, so just please don't rush them
He also said it here:
CodeComet6161 wrote:
PLEASE, they all have lives outside of Scratch. It also has to go through very careful consideration before hitting even a single key, so just do not rush them.
I swear to God the scratch team needs to be put back on track. The direction they are heading is loosing track of a connection between them and the scratch community. For a team built on helping people, they need to get back on track. Also Codecomet, I like how you are caring for the scratch team but I would like it if you would stop shutting everyone who is getting frustrated down. If you are wondering where I got the other quote from it is here

IloveRoblox003

The Title is nice, but the reasoning isnt really good.

CodeComet6161

Gabrielklein103 wrote:
CodeComet6161 wrote:
Please, each member has other things to do such as responding to reports, or fixing bugs. They also have a life outside of the world of technology, so just please don't rush them
He also said it here:
CodeComet6161 wrote:
PLEASE, they all have lives outside of Scratch. It also has to go through very careful consideration before hitting even a single key, so just do not rush them.
I swear to God the scratch team needs to be put back on track. The direction they are heading is loosing track of a connection between them and the scratch community. For a team built on helping people, they need to get back on track. Also Codecomet, I like how you are caring for the scratch team but I would like it if you would stop shutting everyone who is getting frustrated down. If you are wondering where I got the other quote from it is here

And I would like it if you'd actually close your tags and hit the preview button. I would also like it if you would accept negative response, if you're always looking for a forced support, you're not gonna get anywhere.

kip22s

CodeComet6161 wrote:
IndexErrorException wrote:
They focus on ‘pointless’ stuff: Face sensing, implementing AI, changing the color of the website, and more.
By saying that, you're basically saying “accessibility is pointless.”
For the majority of users of Scratch those features aren't useful at all. Not hating, its just the truth, they're experiments if anything.
Well for some people that actually LIKE creativity, they are useful.
Scratch has several outstanding suggestions that have been suggested before many people in this forum have even been born. The exponent report block has atleast been mentioned since 2013. Most suggestions can take a couple minutes at most to implement in the code.

ST has to really consider a suggesting before even doing a single thing to implement.
1. Purple DIDN'T help.
2. Stop being passive-aggressive. And that's true, the features aren't that useful or that many of them. Have you used any of them?
3. So, they have to consider adding dark-mode even though ‘'they care about accessibility’' huh.

kip22s

ywc2 wrote:
IndexErrorException wrote:
I am not sure what the ST is doing. They are for sure understaffed, underpaid and overworked but I see things that don't make sense.

They focus on ‘pointless’ stuff: Face sensing, implementing AI, changing the color of the website, and more.

For the majority of users of Scratch those features aren't useful at all. Not hating, its just the truth, they're experiments if anything.

Scratch has several outstanding suggestions that have been suggested before many people in this forum have even been born. The exponent report block has atleast been mentioned since 2013. Most suggestions can take a couple minutes at most to implement in the code.
I would like to add that the color change was for accessibility- purple has a better contrast than blue and is more visible to people that have vision problems.

I can see why kids would want to have face sensing and AI, those things are actually interesting to Scratch's target audience.

The AI is expensive and instead of creativity, it's more like ‘'trying to be hip with the kids’' then anything.

Gabrielklein103

Za-Chary wrote:
_Paymer wrote:
Many things such as 2D lists or BigNum have been either rejected for being too complex for Scratch's design goals, which are to simplify coding for beginners, or simply get ghosted for whole decades. Ironically, the addition of these “complex” blocks would actually make Scratch easier to use. […] Isn't this a contradiction?
No, because “Easier to create certain types of projects” is not the same thing as “Easier to use the editor.” The Scratch Team is primarily focused on the latter, which makes sense because Scratch is intended for beginner programmers. Too many blocks, and a new user would get overwhelmed and not even attempt to learn. As such, there needs to be a balance: there should be enough blocks for a new user to get started, but not so many that a new user gets overwhelmed.
Just no, My first coding I ever did was on scratch and you know what I did If I did not get something, I left it alone till I became more experienced and the I used it. If scratch is to keep the older players they must add more things you can do in scratch or people will turn to JavaScript and other coding methods. Right now the main thing you see on scratch is random troll games that people make. Projects will be better if scratch lets them be better.

kip22s

CodeComet6161 wrote:
Gabrielklein103 wrote:
CodeComet6161 wrote:
Please, each member has other things to do such as responding to reports, or fixing bugs. They also have a life outside of the world of technology, so just please don't rush them
He also said it here:
CodeComet6161 wrote:
PLEASE, they all have lives outside of Scratch. It also has to go through very careful consideration before hitting even a single key, so just do not rush them.
I swear to God the scratch team needs to be put back on track. The direction they are heading is loosing track of a connection between them and the scratch community. For a team built on helping people, they need to get back on track. Also Codecomet, I like how you are caring for the scratch team but I would like it if you would stop shutting everyone who is getting frustrated down. If you are wondering where I got the other quote from it is here
And I would like it if you'd actually close your tags and hit the preview button. I would also like it if you would accept negative response, if you're always looking for a forced support, you're not gonna get anywhere.

So, trying to prove anyone (you) wrong is trying to get a ‘'force support’' what??? People don't have to ‘'accept’' negative responses if they're wrong. Dare I bring the image thingy?

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