Scratch 4 should be implemented in Smalltalk. Again.

SonicFanX123_321

rdococ wrote:
(#3)
wer65hertg wrote:
How would this affect the normal Scratch user, and not just the team who develops it?
The normal Scratch user would find it much easier to modify and extend Scratch as they (and I) did in its earlier years, and it would naturally provide a more advanced programming language for older users without splitting the community. Scratch 1.x gave the whole Scratch community access and a gradual introduction to a world of live programming that newer versions simply can't, but the Scratch Team could fix this.

Plus, they certainly have the funding and manpower now, and it's not like they're still adding features to Scratch 3.

also they are DEFINITELY adding features to scratch 3, see new studio pages controversy and the new forum.
unless you mean the editor, which you could have made clearer in your original post.

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Huh, support! A version of Scratch that's easier to code for and easier to mod!

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Please don't blockspam. Instead, you could say support/no support with reasoning or say something that can help this topic be discussed more.

Last edited by 54387a (April 6, 2023 15:24:33)

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Bump

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rdococ

ajskateboarder wrote:
Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.

There are Smalltalk dialects implemented with HTML5 + Javascript

ajskateboarder wrote:
I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though

Certainly an interesting thought.

There's GP Blocks, a block-based programming language developed in itself. One of the original developers behind Scratch (John Maloney) as well as Jens of Snap! fame were involved, but it seems to be abandoned. Real shame; it would have been awesome as a future version of Scratch! There's a community edition, but I don't know that they're doing much with it.

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Crispydogs101

medians wrote:
Crispydogs101 wrote:
I don't think scratch 4.0 is coming in smalltalk (might be also called sqeak) since 4.0 is not announced yet. But if it does then that would be cool since smalltalk can do better things like live blocks and features. So might be support.
Squeak was an implementation of Smalltalk.

Oh I did not know that lol.

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NanoRook

ajskateboarder wrote:
I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.

Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.

Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.

I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though

This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.

I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?

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Basilikos

NanoRook wrote:
ajskateboarder wrote:
I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.

Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.

Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.

I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though

This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.

I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?

Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.

sorry for bad english

NanoRook

Basilikos wrote:
NanoRook wrote:
ajskateboarder wrote:
I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.

Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.

Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.

I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though

This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.

I think there is a genuine argument to be made that Scratch should be more extensible, but Smalltalk is not the answer. Maybe Lua would be a better alternative?
Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.

The Scratch Editor isn't a website.

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gilbert_given_189

NanoRook wrote:
This is the big thing. I remember attempting to learn Squeak (struck me as the most popular Smalltalk implementation) and being baffled at how much community there wasn't. The wiki was barely maintained, the news section hadn't been updated since 2018, and most learning resources are ancient. Same with standard Smalltalk. I don't think it helps that the syntax feels deranged compared to modern programming syntax.

This.

I know Python does it a little with the indent-dedent system, but everything on Smalltalk feels unorthodox and esoteric. I'm fortunate enough to at least know little concepts of the syntax from venturing on the esolanging world (and the fact that most of Squeak self-documents itself), making the learning process a bit easy, but imagine if you're just starting out JavaScript, Lua, or God forbid Scratch. To them, Smalltalk feels back to front, with programming aspects they don't know why it works, but is necessary for reasons unknown to them.

You put your “actions” after the values, contrary to what you have learned on your usual programming class. You can't just define a variable on a line, you have to delimit some variables on vertical lines after the function name for some reason. What you may see as code blocks are actually functions, yet you don't know them because you're accustomed to how functions work on other C-style proglangs. It's a good way to introduce FP, yes, but for them all of these “bizarre” syntax quirks made the Smalltalk language virtually inaccessible to people that came from other, more popular proglangs. On this perspective, Smalltalk-based Scratch would be as hard, if not harder to mod than later version of Scratch, even though technically it's not.

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ajskateboarder

Basilikos wrote:
Lua isn't meant for building entire websites with tons of traffic and features.

Lua is easy to sandbox (which is one of it's nicest features). There are browser implementations and ways to run it on the backend

Last edited by ajskateboarder (May 17, 2023 12:16:24)

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PaperMarioFan2022

cookieclickerer33 wrote:
rdococ wrote:
cookieclickerer33 wrote:
Say it with me everyone!

Scratch 4 will never come out!
the only reason scratch 3 came out was because of the death of flash, so unless HTML 5 gets discontinued, scratch will not reach 4.0, there will be other updates but a new update as big as 3.0/new version has not even been in development, the closest thing to an update we are probably going to get is the currently in development dark mode and high contrast blocks, other than that there are currently no other planned features other than those in scratch lab (that may never even be implemented at all! Although I hope we get the text one, making a text engine is really time consuming if you want centering)
Thanks for bumping

I don't expect Scratch 4 to come out for a while, but if Scratch lives long enough then the technologies it's using are bound to get discontinued. This is something for the Scratch Team to consider when that happens.
I have a feeling by the time HTML gets shut down scratch will have been discontinued for a while, given most of the internet is built off of HTML

It is now, after Adobe Flash has died out.

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creeperyeettt

scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done

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GIitchInTheMatrix

creeperyeettt wrote:
scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done

rdococ wrote:
I don't expect Scratch 4 to come out for a while, but if Scratch lives long enough then the technologies it's using are bound to get discontinued. This is something for the Scratch Team to consider when that happens.

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ajskateboarder

creeperyeettt wrote:
scratch four isnt coming for another few years atleast as 3.0 isnt even done

Did you read the OP

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SonicFanX123_321

scratch 1.4 gave way to scratch 2.0, which was based on flash to provide online editor.
I doubt there's something like a “live environment”; squeak is based offline (.changes and .image files).

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I’m not a real programmer, but I know for sure Scratch 4.0 won’t be released until HTML 5 is discontinued. But until then, this would pretty useful and also creative, especially if advanced coders like to mod Scratch.

Support! I find this very interesting and also useful to a programming language (yes, Scratch is a programming language obviously).

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GIitchInTheMatrix

PaperMarioFan2022 wrote:
I’m not a real programmer, but I know for sure Scratch 4.0 won’t be released until HTML 5 is discontinued.

The ST began 3.0 before Adobe even announced Flash was to be depricated.

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o97doge

Bump and support. Easier to create modifications. Newspeak looks interesting as a choice, even though I haven't used it and it isn't Smalltalk, though it does take some elements from it.

Last edited by o97doge (Oct. 29, 2023 05:03:46)

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HataDad

Smalltalk has some issues like being a 5 level object oriented language.

How about Scala instead? hehe

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