Make Scratch simpler to modify (formerly: implement Scratch in Smalltalk again)

wer65hertg

Paddle2See wrote:
Let's stop arguing about what the next version(s) of Scratch will be called. It's not important. There will be future changes to Scratch and they will probably have some kind of revision number attached to them.

Instead, please focus on developing the suggestion. What are the benefits of this idea? What problems do you see if it were implemented? Are there mitigation strategies that could be developed to address any potential problems?

Thanks.

Thank you, I will use this in the future to make it clear to people that there will be a new update.
king of the page

Last edited by wer65hertg (March 8, 2023 16:13:01)

cookieclickerer33

GIitchInTheMatrix wrote:
cookieclickerer33 wrote:
Say it with me everyone!

Scratch 4 will never come out!
the only reason scratch 3 came out was because of the death of flash, so unless HTML 5 gets discontinued, scratch will not reach 4.0, there will be other updates but a new update as big as 3.0/new version has not even been in development, the closest thing to an update we are probably going to get is the currently in development dark mode and high contrast blocks, other than that there are currently no other planned features other than those in scratch lab (that may never even be implemented at all! Although I hope we get the text one, making a text engine is really time consuming if you want centering)
Say it with me everyone!

Thats blatant misinformation!
Scratch 3.0 was announced and worked on by 2016, before Flash even announced its EOL! They only put it out when they did because the editor wouldn’t work anymore! So, while 4.0 won’t ever come out, it won’t come out until the ST wants to try out a new editor! And the myth Scratch. Came out due to Flash dying, well, Flash announced its EOL 3 YEARS after the ST w started working on 3.0! So, unless they’re time travelers, they wouldn’t know it.

Really? I thought they said that they rushed 3.0 to get it out before flash got discontinued.
guess I was wrong, huh. That changes a lot for me.

Last edited by cookieclickerer33 (March 8, 2023 17:30:56)

PPPDUD

cookieclickerer33 wrote:
GIitchInTheMatrix wrote:
cookieclickerer33 wrote:
Say it with me everyone!

Scratch 4 will never come out!
the only reason scratch 3 came out was because of the death of flash, so unless HTML 5 gets discontinued, scratch will not reach 4.0, there will be other updates but a new update as big as 3.0/new version has not even been in development, the closest thing to an update we are probably going to get is the currently in development dark mode and high contrast blocks, other than that there are currently no other planned features other than those in scratch lab (that may never even be implemented at all! Although I hope we get the text one, making a text engine is really time consuming if you want centering)
Say it with me everyone!

Thats blatant misinformation!
Scratch 3.0 was announced and worked on by 2016, before Flash even announced its EOL! They only put it out when they did because the editor wouldn’t work anymore! So, while 4.0 won’t ever come out, it won’t come out until the ST wants to try out a new editor! And the myth Scratch. Came out due to Flash dying, well, Flash announced its EOL 3 YEARS after the ST w started working on 3.0! So, unless they’re time travelers, they wouldn’t know it.
Really? I thought they said that they rushed 3.0 to get it out before flash got discontinued.
guess I was wrong, huh. That changes a lot for me.

Please get back on topic before Paddle2See begins a cleanup operation.

wer65hertg

PPPDUD wrote:
Please get back on topic before Paddle2See begins a cleanup operation.

Why would he delete those?

PPPDUD

wer65hertg wrote:
PPPDUD wrote:
Please get back on topic before Paddle2See begins a cleanup operation.
Why would he delete those?

Because they're offtopic.

wer65hertg

PPPDUD wrote:
Because they're offtopic.

But they contribute to the main suggestion (I think).

54387a

54387a wrote:
Support because I want to modify Scratch to add all the blocks I want to add with more features.

10data10

It looks like there were many modified versions of Scratch 1.x so that’s a good sign that people were interested in extending their creativity to using Squeak.

A Smalltalk version could be a really good way for people to develop live versions of new blocks and features that people could try out and even the Scratch Team could test out their usefulness.

I guess putting Smalltalk on your resume doesn’t help but saying you planned and developed a working product based on a popular education programming language probably would look good.

I don’t expect the Scratch Team to weigh in on this but having Scratch now dependent on multiple layers of software probably has increased the cost of ongoing maintenance. I’d expect it complicates testing and troubleshooting.

On the other hand performance is critical. If a Smalltalk version didn’t match current performance then that would be a showstopper.

Or if it could not connect to all of the current devices, or if some features could not be implemented that the community could not live without.

Still, it’s an interesting idea and fun to think about.

Crispydogs101

I don't think scratch 4.0 is coming in smalltalk (might be also called sqeak) since 4.0 is not announced yet. But if it does then that would be cool since smalltalk can do better things like live blocks and features. So might be support.

medians

Crispydogs101 wrote:
I don't think scratch 4.0 is coming in smalltalk (might be also called sqeak) since 4.0 is not announced yet. But if it does then that would be cool since smalltalk can do better things like live blocks and features. So might be support.

Squeak was an implementation of Smalltalk.

SavetheAtlantic

I think the benefits of you reliving a nostalgia trip from a bygone era outweigh the drawback of redoing all of Scratch for the fourth time in a row.

TheSecondGilbert

SavetheAtlantic wrote:
I think the benefits of you reliving a nostalgia trip from a bygone era outweigh the drawback of redoing all of Scratch for the fourth time in a row.

I second this. The idea of updating 1.4 or even rewriting Scratch to use old technology has similar powers to TOLORS §2.4 I think.

rdococ

TheSecondGilbert wrote:
SavetheAtlantic wrote:
I think the benefits of you reliving a nostalgia trip from a bygone era outweigh the drawback of redoing all of Scratch for the fourth time in a row.
I second this. The idea of updating 1.4 or even rewriting Scratch to use old technology has similar powers to TOLORS §2.4 I think.

I thought about this while writing the suggestion, but:

Smalltalk dialects are still being actively developed, so the technology is not necessarily old.
Reimplementing Scratch in a Javascript-based Smalltalk won't break compatibility or online functionality. The other bit about undoing hard work by the ST is fair enough, but they have already done that twice, so I wouldn't rule it out in 5 years time or something.

I understand everyone's apprehension regarding this suggestion. But, my goal isn't to make the ST rewrite Scratch for the fourth time, but to give them an interesting consideration if (when?) they eventually have to do so anyway.

RSITYTScratch

Scratch 4.0 will never come out, since it's not announced yet.

medians

RSITYTScratch wrote:
Scratch 4.0 will never come out, since it's not announced yet.

That doesn't make sense. There are no plans for it currently, but that doesn't mean that there won't be plans in the future. And by that logic, was Scratch 3.0 announced when 1.0 came out, or was the 25th game of a series announced when the first was announced?

RSITYTScratch

medians wrote:
There are no plans for it currently, but that doesn't mean that there won't be plans in the future.

Does it mean that Scratch 4.0 might come out in the future?

medians

RSITYTScratch wrote:
medians wrote:
There are no plans for it currently, but that doesn't mean that there won't be plans in the future.
Does it mean that Scratch 4.0 might come out in the future?

It could, though there just aren't CURRENTLY (which means that could change) plans.

GIitchInTheMatrix

Bump

ajskateboarder

I like this idea, but there's valid reasons for Scratch 3.0 to use modern web technologies.

Accessibility: You can run Scratch 3 on any device with OpenGL and a web browser, and that is what makes Scratch a good beginner language. If Scratch migrated to Smalltalk, it would be hard to directly run it in the browser without it being far less interactive.

Strong community: It would be hard to find contributors for Scratch's open source components if they all switched to Smalltalk. Despite Smalltalk being easier to learn, many more people have learned JavaScript and React beforehand, so it's ironically easier to contribute to LLK.

I think this would be much better as a community-driven project, not a part of the next Scratch version. I'm sure the Scratch open-source community will like the project, though

wer65hertg

bump

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