Discuss Scratch

dracae
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Blaze349 wrote:

For a start how about people not being able to congratulate you on your followers(100,200 e.t.c) then people with not that many followers wouldn't feel so bad.
So you don't want to allow users to give compliments?

mathfreak231 wrote:

how about just limiting the amount of people one can follow; there's really no need to follow more than 10 or 20 Scratchers that you know irl or that inspire you
Sorry, I don't agree.

Zro716
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

*ahem*

Zro716 wrote:

So I think I know how to fix the follow system. Right now, it's pretty dry, because following only “works” if you view the front page. But since I don't do that much, I'm often left to the elements to figure out what new projects were shared by who. The solution: messages. If you follow someone, you receive updates about the user you followed, but emphasis falls short on “receive updates” because you don't actually receive notifications. So whenever someone shares a project, you'll receive a message.

Sound good?

Last edited by Zro716 (July 7, 2014 22:19:31)


As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.
cheeseeater
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Zro716 wrote:

*ahem*

Zro716 wrote:

So I think I know how to fix the follow system. Right now, it's pretty dry, because following only “works” if you view the front page. But since I don't do that much, I'm often left to the elements to figure out what new projects were shared by who. The solution: messages. If you follow someone, you receive updates about the user you followed, but emphasis falls short on “receive updates” because you don't actually receive notifications. So whenever someone shares a project or makes/curates/follows a studio, you'll receive a message.

Sound good?
Nice idea! Again, waiting for a pc to write more and add it to suggestions.
cheeseeater
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Zro716 wrote:

dracae wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

dracae wrote:

I realize the logic behind what went down with AE studios (They mess with projects).

HOWEVER… What is problematic about following? So what if it means someone is popular? I'm fairly sure that is one of its purposes.
What's next, not displaying love its and favorites?
if you read the rest of the posts, we're discussing the follow-trade issue which is implicitly ruining the following system
Ummm… What following “system”? With cheeseeater's proposals, there won't BE a following system anymore…
do I really have to explain everything because of your sarcasm? very well…

The following system allows users receive updates from other users such as projects they share and projects they like. What I meant by “ruining” is that people follow because they feel like it and never bother checking out projects by those they follow. So what cheeseeater suggests is to fix that particular problem, rather than eliminate the system as a whole.

Zro716 wrote:

Really, the only “problem” with “following” was when you said that “Quite a few scratchers have left over this” and even then, you joke about the legitimacy of that point and don't give proof either.
only one user so far is confirmed to leave because of follow4follow (ProdigyZeta7), another left but didn't give reasons (r2dav2). but we suspect he left in tandem with the other.
So, only ONE person has explicitly stated he was leaving over F4Fs, but…
He even states he's going to college… Which IS the biggest factor, not F4Fs.

So… I still don't support.
Okay, I understand you're being a bit doubtful about the impact of F4F (and AE), but your stoic attitude isn't helping. At least know that ProdigyZeta7 stated a month ago (I think) that college starts in September, so he had plenty of time to leave but decided early because of his failing hope on Scratch. Yeah, even I think it's quite lame to leave because of hopelessness brought by others, but to me he's made great points about said issues.

_______

So I think I know how to fix the follow system. Right now, it's pretty dry, because following only “works” if you view the front page. But since I don't do that much, I'm often left to the elements to figure out what new projects were shared by who. The solution: messages. If you follow someone, you receive updates about the user you followed, but emphasis falls short on “receive updates” because you don't actually receive notifications. So whenever someone shares a project or makes/curates/follows a studio, you'll receive a message.

Sound good?
Too the words right from my mouth! (Back on PC now )
AonymousGuy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

I'm going to give everyone my perspective on this:

It is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY irrelevant that anyone who is “famous” left because of the problem. In fact, that's basically causing the problem.

“Fame” is a imaginary idea in everybody's heads that they are for some reason a better person if more people know about them, or that they are more important, or that they are in some other way different if they are “famous”. But in fact, it means nothing other than there is a larger amount of icons and a bigger number on your profile page, and more people who see notifications about you on the front page.

So the whole solution is to remove fame in any ways possible. Remove the “followers” count, rename it to subscribing, and give everyone notifications about users they are following in their messages section. AND make it impossible to disable messages. (Messages would only be about projects that the user shared.)
Blaze349
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

AonymousGuy wrote:

I'm going to give everyone my perspective on this:

It is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY irrelevant that anyone who is “famous” left because of the problem. In fact, that's basically causing the problem.

“Fame” is a imaginary idea in everybody's heads that they are for some reason a better person if more people know about them, or that they are more important, or that they are in some other way different if they are “famous”. But in fact, it means nothing other than there is a larger amount of icons and a bigger number on your profile page, and more people who see notifications about you on the front page.

So the whole solution is to remove fame in any ways possible. Remove the “followers” count, rename it to subscribing, and give everyone notifications about users they are following in their messages section. AND make it impossible to disable messages. (Messages would only be about projects that the user shared.)
It is not because he is famous. Its just i didn't want anyone else to leave…
OmnipotentPotato
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Bring back 1.4…… T_T jk
Deerleg
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

AonymousGuy wrote:

I'm going to give everyone my perspective on this:

It is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY irrelevant that anyone who is “famous” left because of the problem. In fact, that's basically causing the problem.

“Fame” is a imaginary idea in everybody's heads that they are for some reason a better person if more people know about them, or that they are more important, or that they are in some other way different if they are “famous”. But in fact, it means nothing other than there is a larger amount of icons and a bigger number on your profile page, and more people who see notifications about you on the front page.

So the whole solution is to remove fame in any ways possible. Remove the “followers” count, rename it to subscribing, and give everyone notifications about users they are following in their messages section. AND make it impossible to disable messages. (Messages would only be about projects that the user shared.)
The user notifications in the messages would be a good idea.


Firedrake969
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Blaze349 wrote:

AonymousGuy wrote:

I'm going to give everyone my perspective on this:

It is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY irrelevant that anyone who is “famous” left because of the problem. In fact, that's basically causing the problem.

“Fame” is a imaginary idea in everybody's heads that they are for some reason a better person if more people know about them, or that they are more important, or that they are in some other way different if they are “famous”. But in fact, it means nothing other than there is a larger amount of icons and a bigger number on your profile page, and more people who see notifications about you on the front page.

So the whole solution is to remove fame in any ways possible. Remove the “followers” count, rename it to subscribing, and give everyone notifications about users they are following in their messages section. AND make it impossible to disable messages. (Messages would only be about projects that the user shared.)
It is not because he is famous. Its just i didn't want anyone else to leave…
One person leaving != many people leaving

'17 rickoid

bf97b44a7fbd33db070f6ade2b7dc549
Blaze349
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Firedrake969 wrote:

Blaze349 wrote:

AonymousGuy wrote:

I'm going to give everyone my perspective on this:

It is COMPLETELY and UTTERLY irrelevant that anyone who is “famous” left because of the problem. In fact, that's basically causing the problem.

“Fame” is a imaginary idea in everybody's heads that they are for some reason a better person if more people know about them, or that they are more important, or that they are in some other way different if they are “famous”. But in fact, it means nothing other than there is a larger amount of icons and a bigger number on your profile page, and more people who see notifications about you on the front page.

So the whole solution is to remove fame in any ways possible. Remove the “followers” count, rename it to subscribing, and give everyone notifications about users they are following in their messages section. AND make it impossible to disable messages. (Messages would only be about projects that the user shared.)
It is not because he is famous. Its just i didn't want anyone else to leave…
One person leaving != many people leaving
I might leave cause of this….
Zro716
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

I'm kinda thinking about leaving too, and usually I'm not like this. It's like a ripple of depression going about, and it all started when users lost faith in the Scratch Team's power to make change. If anything supersedes the rules it's the power to change them, but since the Scratch Team is perfectly okay with users demanding fame through following it's just… gosh, this is quite depressing stuff.

As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.
cheeseeater
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

I think one of the main reasons this is happening is because of new, younger scratchers joining. In England they should now teach Scratch to kids in year 3-6. Thus there is a younger age group. In most cases, younger people do not understand the concept of following.
dracae
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Zro716 wrote:

but since the Scratch Team is perfectly okay with users demanding fame through following it's just… gosh, this is quite depressing stuff.
Well, yes, following is for fame.

There's a reason why FAMOUS users have a lot of FOLLOWERS.

Blaze349
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

dracae wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

but since the Scratch Team is perfectly okay with users demanding fame through following it's just… gosh, this is quite depressing stuff.
Well, yes, following is for fame.

There's a reason why FAMOUS users have a lot of FOLLOWERS.
No it isn't. According to the scratchteam following is for keeping stats on what a user is doing. At first people probably wanted to keep stats on proficient scratchers and they soon became well-known. Soon people became to confuse the following with fame rather than keeping statistics and that i how the problem of fame grew slowly.
Blaze349
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

This is what I think
Zro716
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

dracae wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

but since the Scratch Team is perfectly okay with users demanding fame through following it's just… gosh, this is quite depressing stuff.
Well, yes, following is for fame.

There's a reason why FAMOUS users have a lot of FOLLOWERS.
You're misunderstanding the purpose of following. You're seeing it as a measurement of popularity when in reality it is an agreement to receive notices about a user, such as projects they share and liked. However, as we don't have a means of receiving updates in our messages and therefore we aren't aware of everything about those we follow, we perceive following as indicating how popular a user is.

Being aware of this I believe our solution is quite obvious: Receive messages from users about what they share, what they like, and what/who they follow (maybe). Given enough time those following tons of users would be driven to stop following so many as their inbox is flooded with messages they don't want, all the while maintaining closer ties between the follower and the followed.

Last edited by Zro716 (July 7, 2014 22:20:17)


As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.
PH-zero
Scratcher
100+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

#2 and #3 are very good solutions
But to be honest. #4 is simply ingenious!

Ever wanted to rotate the stage? Or to
go to x:() y:() z:() ::custom
Click me!
dracae
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

I still don't see what the problem is with the following for follows business.
It's completely harmless, I don't see a reason to “fix” this “problem”
Honestly, who is the following system hurting?

Zro716
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

dracae wrote:

I still don't see what the problem is with the following for follows business.
It's completely harmless, I don't see a reason to “fix” this “problem”
Honestly, who is the following system hurting?
Non sequitur, bro
Harm

“physical injury, especially that which is deliberately inflicted”
so nothing here is being hurt in this context.

But that does not mean it isn't a bad thing. There are users following hundreds or even thousands of users, neglecting to view the projects of their subjects because they are more delighted in the number than the content. There are users indignantly begging for followers, even going so far as to spam profiles and the forums. There are users fighting to bring the practice of F4F to everyone, in the hopes of a fancy so stupid its success would be inconceivably frivolous.

The grand scheme of this trend is degrading everything we have built up in the following system, because there is no point to it, you see. People are in search of its purpose by following high numbers, but at every end they find nothing has changed, and so they continue to follow more and more. The fault in this system is not the problem of these practices, but the fact it lacks a function.

As I have found by researching other websites and their “following” systems, they send notifications to users about what another user is doing, i.e. what they just shared or just liked. In our system it is mandatory that we check the front page for updates, and this undoubtedly is the core problem. It makes sense because if we neglect to check the front page for new projects, we neglect to view projects by those we follow, which makes following a frivolous thing to do; and as a consequence, people will follow hundreds, thousands, indefinite counts of users just for fun.

So as I said earlier, the solution is this:

Zro716 wrote:

Receive messages from users about what they share, what they like, and what/who they follow (maybe). Given enough time those following tons of users would be driven to stop following so many as their inbox is flooded with messages they don't want, all the while maintaining closer ties between the follower and the followed.
Do you object to this idea which will benefit us all?

Last edited by Zro716 (July 7, 2014 22:20:50)


As a long time Scratcher, I have found new meaning to the name “Scratch”: for me, it means to “scratch that itch”, to come back again and again to realize new ideas in this toy language, even when I'm capable of creating my projects in real programming languages years later. It's a friend that helped me to pursue programming and get me to enjoy its fruit. I'm certain many others who have walked this path as well have grown fond of its importance in their life.
dracae
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The followers problem, this needs to be sorted.

Zro716 wrote:

-snip-
I find it kinda ironic how you rant so much about how the F4F causes spam, yet you support an idea that will multiply spam ten-fold?

Anyways, I have compiled several arguments:
- Your idea does not benefit “us all,” in fact it just creates more spam.
- Your idea discourages following, which I guess is the point. A bad point, however, because following is an integral part of Scratch and you want to wreck this feature.
- Furthermore, you yourself admit that the current following system is completely harmless, which further drives me to say…

Still no support.

(EDIT:

Zro716 wrote:

in the hopes of a fancy so stupid its success would be inconceivably frivolous.
Calm down there bud, no need for hurtful words and innapriopriate language to try to prove your point. No one wants a flame war, right?)

Last edited by dracae (July 7, 2014 21:00:33)


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