Discuss Scratch

furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

When you sign up for scratch, your country is asked for, and shown on your profile. Here is a discussion on whether it should be removed or not. I think it should be kept, but I'd love to hear others' opinions—reply after you finish reading this post, if you want! I actually used to think it should be removed, but after hearing some reasons from others, I realized that maybe there was a good reason for having the country feature (that's when I changed the discussion to have ideas from both sides, pro and con). I'm leaving this open for anybody who thinks the location feature should be removed like I used to, so they still have a place to talk about it (it would be selfish to close it down just because I changed my mind, and I started it!).

Pro: Location should be removed
Con: Location should be kept
Mix: Mix of opinions or a different compromise related to location

What it's used for
Pro: It's unnecessary (1A)
The country is barely used, and is barely mentioned among scratchers, it just is on profiles. There used to be location-based features, but not anymore—it just seems unnecessary now.
This point is argued against in sections 1B and 1C

Con: It is nice to see, even if not completely necessary (1B)
Perhaps location isn't quite unnecessary, another scratcher Za-Chary says in a post below on this topic. They say that they like to see where other scratchers are from, because it's interesting, and it shows the diversity of scratch (similar to what I said about the statistics).

Za-Chary wrote:

…I honestly like the country feature. It interests me to see where other Scratchers are from. Seeing users from the United States, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Sweden, Serbia, Australia, and other places really reminds me that people all over the world use Scratch. I just sorta like the idea.
I agree, though I don't normally look at the countries, but I guess the country does have a purpose. I wonder why the scratch team added the feature—for this reason? Because of the old location-based features? Because of the reason in section 1C?
This point is argued against in section 3A

Con: It is sometimes used, even if not too often (1C)
Another scratcher says that the location does have uses. Sometimes, in conversations, location can be useful because countries are different and there may be some times where you say something based upon country.

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

I find it particularly useful when talking about things with other users- for example, I was giving a user I won't name some advice and being able to know they were from the US and therefore didn't have easy access to healthcare was useful. It also makes for a good conversation starter and, building from that, adds another layer of educational benefit to the site.
Sometimes, country can be used for things like this, and there are other situations as well.
This point is argued against in section 3A

Pro: It's used in statistics, but doesn't need to be on profiles (1D)
One of the only places where location is used is in the scratch statistics. Collecting statistics is great, because it shows the wondrous diversity of scratch and is quite interesting, but if it's being used only for statistics, it's unnecessary for profiles. Just like age, it could be used in statistics but stay private from everybody else.
This point is argued against in sections 1B and 1C

Negative Effects
Pro: It may be too private (2A)
Some may see the country as an invasion of privacy. Some might see it oddly private, just to have locations shared—even though it's inexact, as explained in section 2C, and isn't necessary to share, as explained in section 2B. I have yet to see somebody who thinks it's too private, so if you do think so, please reply (this section is only here in case any people do, it has no real evidence yet)
This point is argued against in sections 2B and 2C

Con: You're allowed to keep your location private (2B)
There are features to keep your location private, so it's not really an invasion of privacy.
This point is argued against in section 2A

Con: The location isn't very exact (2C)
The location is just a country, you can't exactly track people down from it. It's very inexact.
This point is argued against in section 2A

Pro: It could lead to bullying (2D)
This doesn't seem to happen (as explained in section 2E), but bullying could happen due to location. Even if it doesn't happen, maybe it's good to remove it before something happens. Also, people may have stereotypical thoughts, even if not visible to the public, that still may be bad. (tell me if you know of any situations of this, but don't give names. This section currently has no evidence, as you can tell)
This point is argued against in section 2E

Con: This bullying doesn't really happen (2E)
If there ever are problems due to bullying, the location feature can be removed then, or a different compromise made. It doesn't seem that there are mental thought problems either, as mentioned in section 2D, even if it's not visible, and if it's beyond view, maybe it's not so bad.
This point is argued against in section 2D

More
Pro: It seems more like a thing for about me (3A)
Scratchers like to put interests, age, gender, etc in their about me. Their country seems like something that could go along with this. It isn't so important that it should be put with join date, status, and username. If it is put in about me, it still can be seen.
This point is argued against in section 3B

Con: Takes up space in about me (3B)
Dude341 said that it takes up too much space in the about me, and keeping it where it is would avoid this problem. Perhaps the space issue isn't too big, but it still could be kept where it is to avoid it, because it still isn't worth it to keep it in about me.
This point is currently not argued against

Con: It may take some unnecessary work to do (3C)
MathlyCat mentioned that it isn't worth it to get rid of country, because it would require changing the scratch website. This makes sense, as the website may take some work to change and, no matter how necessary you think the location is, maybe it's still not worth it.

MathlyCat wrote:

why change the website for such a minor thing?
This point is currently not argued against

I'd love to hear your opinion!
Reply with your opinion, and explain your reasoning (or if you just agree with my reasons). Please be constructive and NOT just say “support” or “don't support” without explaining (I have done this before, but eventually realized not to, because it adds nothing to the discussion). If you see any mistakes here, tell me. If this topic has already been made, please direct me towards it. Also, if you are replying, make sure you have thoroughly read through this topic. Several replies I've received are people claiming I said something when I said the opposite or repeating points already mentioned with no farther elaboration (it's annoying).

Last edited by furrypig (Nov. 21, 2018 03:25:58)

Za-Chary
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

No support.

To counter your ideas that it is unnecessary and needs not be on profiles, I honestly like the country feature. It interests me to see where other Scratchers are from. Seeing users from the United States, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Sweden, Serbia, Australia, and other places really reminds me that people all over the world use Scratch. I just sorta like the idea.

I don't think you're arguing against this, but I'd just like to add that it is important for Scratch to see the countries, in terms of statistics.

I don't think it really has negative effects. To those who are worried that it's an invasion of privacy, they generally set their location to “Antarctica”. Of course no one really lives there, but it's an option in case no one wants to share their country.

Furthermore, I can't recall hearing anyone being disrespectful to, or being stereotypical of, people in different countries. Honestly, I see more arguments on Scratch about gay people, Scratch 3.0, and even Fortnite, but nothing about a specific country. Just because people might get stereotypical doesn't mean they will. Unless you have specific examples of situations that have happened before, I can't really say that the country mechanic has any negative effects.

Plus, in terms of privacy, if all you know about someone is what country they live in, it would probably be very, very hard to track them down even if you wanted to.

Perhaps it could be used for “About Me”, but as long as we have this feature, it just kinda fits in with the profile idea.

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furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

Za-Chary wrote:

No support.

To counter your ideas that it is unnecessary and needs not be on profiles, I honestly like the country feature. It interests me to see where other Scratchers are from. Seeing users from the United States, United Kingdom, Costa Rica, Sweden, Serbia, Australia, and other places really reminds me that people all over the world use Scratch. I just sorta like the idea.

I don't think you're arguing against this, but I'd just like to add that it is important for Scratch to see the countries, in terms of statistics.

I don't think it really has negative effects. To those who are worried that it's an invasion of privacy, they generally set their location to “Antarctica”. Of course no one really lives there, but it's an option in case no one wants to share their country.

Furthermore, I can't recall hearing anyone being disrespectful to, or being stereotypical of, people in different countries. Honestly, I see more arguments on Scratch about gay people, Scratch 3.0, and even Fortnite, but nothing about a specific country. Just because people might get stereotypical doesn't mean they will. Unless you have specific examples of situations that have happened before, I can't really say that the country mechanic has any negative effects.

Plus, in terms of privacy, if all you know about someone is what country they live in, it would probably be very, very hard to track them down even if you wanted to.

Perhaps it could be used for “About Me”, but as long as we have this feature, it just kinda fits in with the profile idea.
1. Based on your reply, I think you read this way too quickly. Please re-read it slower so you can hopefully understand better.
2. I didn't think of wanting to know what countries people come from to see the diversity—that makes it hard for me to choose now whether the country should be removed. I mean, people could add it in their about me, and you would still see diversity, but not everybody would do so… I don't often look at the country, but I guess others might. I'll edit the original post soon to talk about this.
3. As I said, yes, the statistics about countries are a great thing—it really shows diversity and is quite interesting. However, I don't think that really is important to mention, because I've already mentioned it in the original post and it isn't too related in general.
4. As I said, yes, you are able to not give your location, and it doesn't have to be Antarctica (though many scratchers do this for fun).Though in my opinion it seems strange to give out locations. Of course, it is very broad, just a country, so maybe privacy isn't too bad of a concern.
5. As I said, yes, I definitely haven't seen anybody being disrespectful to or stereotypical of people based on their country publicly, but it's not all about what they do publicly that can be seen. It seems highly unlikely, but there's a chance of country making people biased in a non-public way, and even less likely publicly.
6. I meant to say, yes, the country is very broad, so it isn't too private, and yes, it is barely an invasion of privacy (though some people may have other opinions). I'll edit the original post to add that.
Edit: 7. I've seen your projects before, they're pretty good :)

Last edited by furrypig (Nov. 18, 2018 04:07:09)

Za-Chary
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
This is what I look for in a reply. It's clear that you're thinking about this well, and are willing to consider others' thoughts and advice, especially since you referenced my reply in your original post (which I appreciate). However, I'm not sure what you mean by your first point. I read your post again, and I think I still understand what your suggestion is all about; however, I am really tired, so that might be contributing to something.

Despite that, I still have a hard time seeing any negative effects from this. If Scratch removed everything that might cause discrimination, they could easily remove profile pictures, and comments in general. If there is any discrimination against certain countries, Scratchers should report such comments or projects, just like with anything else disrespectful.

With no downsides, I don't see why it has to be removed. Does the feature itself have any clear and necessary benefits? Perhaps not. But, if it gets removed, nothing would really happen, although I would definitely miss the feature.

I still must say no support, but I hope you think of an idea that could work for everyone.

I also appreciate that comment of yours about my projects, it means a lot to me.

This is my forum signature! On a forum post, it is okay for Scratchers to advertise in their forum signature. The signature is the stuff that shows up below the horizontal line on the post. It will show up on every post I make.

After about 2.5 years of freedom… the 60-second rule strikes again.
TheRealNetherBefore
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

No support since I have yet to see anyone actually misusing this feature for things such as bullying like you suggest, plus I find it particularly useful when talking about things with other users- for example, I was giving a user I won't name some advice and being able to know they were from the US and therefore didn't have easy access to healthcare was useful. It also makes for a good conversation starter and, building from that, adds another layer of educational benefit to the site.

*Drinks ketchup*
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ShinigamiBlacky
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

furrypig wrote:

The country is never used anywhere
https://scratch.mit.edu/statistics/
BaconAndEggs1School
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

ShinigamiBlacky wrote:

furrypig wrote:

The country is never used anywhere
https://scratch.mit.edu/statistics/
OP's already acknowledged this:

furrypig wrote:

It's used in statistics, but doesn't need to be on profiles
The only place I know that location is used is in the scratch statistics. I understand collecting statistics is great, because it shows the wondrous diversity of scratch and is quite interesting, but if it's being used only for statistics, it doesn't need to be on scratchers' profiles. Just like age, it could be used in statistics but stay private from everybody else.

ShinigamiBlacky
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

BaconAndEggs1School wrote:

ShinigamiBlacky wrote:

furrypig wrote:

The country is never used anywhere
https://scratch.mit.edu/statistics/
OP's already acknowledged this:

furrypig wrote:

It's used in statistics, but doesn't need to be on profiles
The only place I know that location is used is in the scratch statistics. I understand collecting statistics is great, because it shows the wondrous diversity of scratch and is quite interesting, but if it's being used only for statistics, it doesn't need to be on scratchers' profiles. Just like age, it could be used in statistics but stay private from everybody else.
I cant read…sorry
LionHeart70
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

No support since I have yet to see anyone actually misusing this feature for things such as bullying like you suggest, plus I find it particularly useful when talking about things with other users- for example, I was giving a user I won't name some advice and being able to know they were from the US and therefore didn't have easy access to healthcare was useful. It also makes for a good conversation starter and, building from that, adds another layer of educational benefit to the site.
^ I agree with this. Additionally, as Za-Chary pointed out, it's cool to see that users are from a variety of different places.

However, semi-support for an option that allows users to decide on whether or not they want to have their country visible.

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TheRealNetherBefore
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

LionHeart70 wrote:

However, semi-support for an option that allows users to decide on whether or not they want to have their country visible.
^^
Semi support for something like that from me as well.

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NilsTheBest
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

LionHeart70 wrote:

However, semi-support for an option that allows users to decide on whether or not they want to have their country visible.
Sounds like a great compromise! Support for this ^^^^^ because it allows someone to decide whether or not to display their country. The reasons as to why they wouldn't have already been stated previously.

furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

Za-Chary wrote:

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
I'm not sure what you mean by your first point. I read your post again, and I think I still understand what your suggestion is all about; however, I am really tired, so that might be contributing to something.

Despite that, I still have a hard time seeing any negative effects from this. If Scratch removed everything that might cause discrimination, they could easily remove profile pictures, and comments in general. If there is any discrimination against certain countries, Scratchers should report such comments or projects, just like with anything else disrespectful.

With no downsides, I don't see why it has to be removed. Does the feature itself have any clear and necessary benefits? Perhaps not. But, if it gets removed, nothing would really happen, although I would definitely miss the feature.
1. You just missed some details and repeated some things I already said, so I thought you may have been going through too quickly.
2. Yes, the negative effects aren't really seen. I've never seen anybody publicly be discriminating due to the country feature before, though maybe that has happened somewhere, and maybe people are being discriminating without saying anything. I guess this part isn't really a problem, but if it were to become a problem, it would be handled (as you said)
3. Yes, some people would miss the feature. I guess it's not really too unnecessary, seeing your point

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

No support since I have yet to see anyone actually misusing this feature for things such as bullying like you suggest, plus I find it particularly useful when talking about things with other users- for example, I was giving a user I won't name some advice and being able to know they were from the US and therefore didn't have easy access to healthcare was useful. It also makes for a good conversation starter and, building from that, adds another layer of educational benefit to the site.
1. I said the exact opposite in the original post: that I have never seen somebody use this feature for discrimination
2. Yup, sometimes it does help—I just realized it helps sometimes with these kinds of things when country can make a difference in what you may be saying. I'll add that to the original post.

LionHeart70 wrote:

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

No support since I have yet to see anyone actually misusing this feature for things such as bullying like you suggest, plus I find it particularly useful when talking about things with other users- for example, I was giving a user I won't name some advice and being able to know they were from the US and therefore didn't have easy access to healthcare was useful. It also makes for a good conversation starter and, building from that, adds another layer of educational benefit to the site.
^ I agree with this. Additionally, as Za-Chary pointed out, it's cool to see that users are from a variety of different places.

However, semi-support for an option that allows users to decide on whether or not they want to have their country visible.
1. Yes, it is nice to know where scratchers are from
2. As I said in the original post, there are options to not give your location. I'll be more clear about it in the original post because so many people have missed it
3. As I said in the original post, I have never seen anybody misuse this feature.
4. Yup, it is sometimes useful when talking to people (perhaps it isn't all useless)

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

LionHeart70 wrote:

However, semi-support for an option that allows users to decide on whether or not they want to have their country visible.
^^
Semi support for something like that from me as well.
There are options to not give your country already, perhaps I didn't make that clear enough in the original post.

ShinigamiBlacky wrote:

BaconAndEggs1School wrote:

ShinigamiBlacky wrote:

furrypig wrote:

The country is never used anywhere
https://scratch.mit.edu/statistics/
OP's already acknowledged this:

furrypig wrote:

It's used in statistics, but doesn't need to be on profiles
The only place I know that location is used is in the scratch statistics. I understand collecting statistics is great, because it shows the wondrous diversity of scratch and is quite interesting, but if it's being used only for statistics, it doesn't need to be on scratchers' profiles. Just like age, it could be used in statistics but stay private from everybody else.
I cant read…sorry
That's ok :)
TheRealNetherBefore
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
In that case, I don't exactly see your point at all- since no users get bullied/discriminated against with this feature, and those who want privacy can already choose to not set their location, then why do we need to remove it? Having it visible causes absolutely no problems whatsoever and even has some benefits, as previously mentioned: unless you've got a reason why having the feature up is an actual problem, there's no real reason to support your suggestion as it gives no benefit.

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furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
In that case, I don't exactly see your point at all- since no users get bullied/discriminated against with this feature, and those who want privacy can already choose to not set their location, then why do we need to remove it? Having it visible causes absolutely no problems whatsoever and even has some benefits, as previously mentioned: unless you've got a reason why having the feature up is an actual problem, there's no real reason to support your suggestion as it gives no benefit.
Please re-read the original post, it seems you missed a lot. Wait until after re-reading to read the next part.

Yes, that section is barely strong, but I think anti-location people might use that reason (some people might care more about non-public discrimination and even the smallest privacy concerns). I don't really see that point either, but some might be more sensitive.

Last edited by furrypig (Nov. 18, 2018 23:37:26)

MathlyCat
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

furrypig wrote:

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
In that case, I don't exactly see your point at all- since no users get bullied/discriminated against with this feature, and those who want privacy can already choose to not set their location, then why do we need to remove it? Having it visible causes absolutely no problems whatsoever and even has some benefits, as previously mentioned: unless you've got a reason why having the feature up is an actual problem, there's no real reason to support your suggestion as it gives no benefit.
Please re-read the original post, it seems you missed a lot. Wait until after re-reading to read the next part.

Yes, that section is barely strong, but I think anti-location people might use that reason (some people might care more about non-public discrimination and even the smallest privacy concerns). I don't really see that point either, but some might be more sensitive.
The truth is there’s always someone dissatisfied, and whether or not you want to cater towards it doesn’t matter, as long as the majority is fine with a compromise.

I do like the idea of optional location, but I don’t see any justification for removing the feature.
Claiming people “will” discriminate does not mean it does happen. Statistics are nice, and simply opting makes the study a voluntary one, nothing wrong with it at all.
Again, you could put it in About Me, but why change the website for such a minor thing?

Last edited by MathlyCat (Nov. 19, 2018 02:34:11)


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Actions speek louder than words.

hi there fella
furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

MathlyCat wrote:

furrypig wrote:

TheRealNetherBefore wrote:

furrypig wrote:

-snip-
In that case, I don't exactly see your point at all- since no users get bullied/discriminated against with this feature, and those who want privacy can already choose to not set their location, then why do we need to remove it? Having it visible causes absolutely no problems whatsoever and even has some benefits, as previously mentioned: unless you've got a reason why having the feature up is an actual problem, there's no real reason to support your suggestion as it gives no benefit.
Please re-read the original post, it seems you missed a lot. Wait until after re-reading to read the next part.

Yes, that section is barely strong, but I think anti-location people might use that reason (some people might care more about non-public discrimination and even the smallest privacy concerns). I don't really see that point either, but some might be more sensitive.
The truth is there’s always someone dissatisfied, and whether or not you want to cater towards it doesn’t matter, as long as the majority is fine with a compromise.

I do like the idea of optional location, but I don’t see any justification for removing the feature.
Claiming people “will” discriminate does not mean it does happen. Statistics are nice, and simply opting makes the study a voluntary one, nothing wrong with it at all.
Again, you could put it in About Me, but why change the website for such a minor thing?
1. Yup, there are always people dissatisfied. I only left that part there for discussion, mostly, and for any anti-location to people to talk about (if there even are any). I'm not sure what they would have to say about it.
2. Congrats! You are the fifth person to not read the big text bold section of the original post! (EDIT: Only fourth, actually)
3. Congrats! You are the second person to not read the other big bold section of the original post! (EDIT: Third, actually)
4. Yup, the statistics are definitely a great use of the country.
5. Yeah, it seems unnecessary to change it if the website has to be modified. I'll add that as another con reason.
6. Re-read the original post please, and pay attention, so you don't end up doing this again. I'm extremely tired of everybody doing this. It's not all your fault, it's everyone else's as well, but I guess I'm just getting set off now after it happening so many times. I'm glad you understood a few things in the post, though. You only missed those two things, I think, which is less than some people.

Last edited by furrypig (Nov. 19, 2018 04:35:29)

sti_scratch
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

It should be optional to Scratchers to show their location or not. We should give them freedom.
dude341
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

sti_scratch wrote:

It should be optional to Scratchers to show their location or not. We should give them freedom.
It is, or at least used to be.
______________________________
No support. There is no reason for it to be removed.

Placeholder
furrypig
Scratcher
100+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

sti_scratch wrote:

It should be optional to Scratchers to show their location or not. We should give them freedom.
Woo hoo! You're officially the 5th not to read the giant, red, bold text that says:
You're allowed to keep your location private (for some reason people still aren't reading this! Currently, the count is 4 out of 7 people)
That makes the count now 5 out of 8 (that's 62.5% of all people)! As I said in the original post,
…if you are replying, make sure you have actually read through this topic. Most replies I've received are people claiming I said something when I said the opposite or repeating points already mentioned with no farther elaboration. This is just useless, and extremely annoying. I'd like to hear opinions, but sometimes it gets really annoying when most people are so careless. I'm glad people still did bring up a lot of new points, though (it's what changed my mind in the first place).
Anyways, please read the original post. This is getting to be extremely annoying! I may shut this topic down entirely!


dude341 wrote:

sti_scratch wrote:

It should be optional to Scratchers to show their location or not. We should give them freedom.
It is, or at least used to be.
______________________________
No support. There is no reason for it to be removed.
FINALLY! You're the fourth person to view this to read the original post and see the text that said:
You're allowed to keep your location private (for some reason people still aren't reading this! Currently, the count is 4 out of 7 people)
Unlike the other half of people that read this topic! The count is now 5 out of 9 (I'll have to update it in the original post now), which is improving, at least: now, 4 have read the giant red bold text and 5 haven't: It's getting closer to half-half now!

Also, please elaborate on “there is no reason for it to be removed.” Half of the reasons I put in the original post are pro for removing the location feature, so there are certainly reasons. Do you mean you think these reasons aren't good enough?
sti_scratch
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Should the Location Feature Be Removed?

furrypig wrote:

sti_scratch wrote:

It should be optional to Scratchers to show their location or not. We should give them freedom.
Woo hoo! You're officially the 5th not to read the giant, red, bold text that says:
You're allowed to keep your location private (for some reason people still aren't reading this! Currently, the count is 4 out of 7 people)
That makes the count now 5 out of 8 (that's 62.5% of all people)! As I said in the original post,
…if you are replying, make sure you have actually read through this topic. Most replies I've received are people claiming I said something when I said the opposite or repeating points already mentioned with no farther elaboration. This is just useless, and extremely annoying. I'd like to hear opinions, but sometimes it gets really annoying when most people are so careless. I'm glad people still did bring up a lot of new points, though (it's what changed my mind in the first place).
Anyways, please read the original post. This is getting to be extremely annoying! I may shut this topic down entirely!
You said “you're allowed to keep your location private.” You didn't say whether you're allowed to keep your location public or not.

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