3rd bump…

Bump. Going to notify Paddle on his profile.

#BumpItBack

#BumpItBack

BelieverGirlSun wrote:

#BumpItBack

**Sigh**
After ten pages of #BumpingItBack, the ST hasn't acted on this at all.
I hope that changes.

PrincessFlowerTV wrote:

BelieverGirlSun wrote:

#BumpItBack

**Sigh**
After ten pages of #BumpingItBack, the ST hasn't acted on this at all.
I hope that changes.

They might be considering it for 3.0, but we don't know.

paws48 wrote:

PrincessFlowerTV wrote:

BelieverGirlSun wrote:

#BumpItBack

**Sigh**
After ten pages of #BumpingItBack, the ST hasn't acted on this at all.
I hope that changes.

They might be considering it for 3.0, but we don't know.

I told Paddle about this, and he said there were “other concerns ” as to why the button wouldn't be added back because of this suggestion and linked me to the announcement. I edited this to still keep the points they made in the announcement and he hasn't replied. I'm getting a feeling that they just don't like the discuss button and will do anything to keep the forums more private.

Really long post, sorry.

This is my first time posting on this particular topic. I read the original post, as well as the latest reply by @BelieverGirlSun, and I think I'd like to do an in-depth analysis of this, if you don't mind. (I did not really read any other replies though, so I'm sorry if I missed something important.) Because you seem to be a bit confused as to why your suggestion is not being considered, I will try my best to argue on the side of the Scratch Team. IMPORTANT: I am not a Scratch Team member (EDIT: or at least, I wasn't when I wrote this), but again, I am going to argue as though I am on the Scratch Team's side.

First of all, @BelieverGirlSun (you are the OP, right?), your original post was very well-thought out, constructive, and argumentative. I really like your rebuttals, and it is clear that you want to make this happen. Because you are an experienced forum helper, I am going to assume that you already know that your suggestion “bring back the Discuss button” is rejected, in which case, way to go with your persistence and dedication! Of course, I plan to say more than “No support because it's rejected.”

I now see what you mean by your suggestion — trying it out on the Scratch Wiki, it's pretty cool, all right. This is definitely a nice way to bring back the Discuss button, without getting rid of the buttons already shown. But, allow me to look at your post and make some criticisms (which will hopefully all be constructive).

wWSunPandaWw wrote:

Most of the community mourned the loss of the Discuss button as soon as the Scratch Team announced that they removed it, thus giving more attention to the forums. I even saw multiple people leaving comments like “I never used it, but STILL!”.

I don't think this is a good argument to bring back the Discuss button. I realize that this is not your sole reasoning for bringing it back (and I don't think you thought this in the first place), but I think this is similar to saying “Support” on a suggestion without explaining why you support it. “But still” is not really a good reason to mourn the loss of the Discuss button. If you didn't use it, why would you be sad that it's gone?

wWSunPandaWw wrote:

I think About should be removed, because we have an entire section for that in the footer, and it's usually parents who get their kids interested in Scratch in the first place, so they'd obviously want to dive really deep into what Scratch is about, not the kids, and the rest of the stuff in the navbar is focused around features the kids need when they use the website.

“About” should definitely not be removed, especially not to be replaced by “Discuss”. It's agreed that parents are the ones to tend to look at this tab, but that's why it's so important — so parents know what Scratch is all about, so they'll let their children use Scratch. “About” is a very useful tab to keep up top, because it's prominent up there. Yes, there is an entire section on the bottom of the website, but I think the “About” tab helps to see clearly what Scratch is about. I like your idea of hiding the button when you log in. I think adding in the “Discuss” button, without replacing “About”, is a good idea for when you log in.

stickfiregames wrote:

Since it expands when you click on it, there doesn't need to be a search bar in “small mode” at all. There could just be search button or icon, shich would save even more space in the languages that need it.

Re-reading this quote, it makes a lot of sense. The search bar could definitely just be a button. This is a great counterargument to an argument made in the original announcement:

dietbacon wrote:

This decision was also made in part because the navigation menu is translated to many other languages, and in some of those languages there was just too much text to fit in the space.

The search bar is flexible in size based on the language you are in. While it may appear extra large in English, this is not always the case. For example, change your language to Deutsch and see what happens. And this is with one item removed from the nav bar - imagine what it was like when there were five items in the nav bar before.

Yep, the quote by @stickfiregames makes a lot of sense, and effectively counters the original announcement. You may as well put a search button right next to the messages button, around the same size — I can't really see a way as to why it wouldn't work.

wWSunPandaWw wrote:

The Scratch Team wants to limit the use of the forums. REBUTTAL: But wanting to do that would mean they want more comments on their profiles asking them questions about scratch, suggesting things for the website, and asking for help with scripts.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. No matter how much you make the forums well-known, there will always be New Scratchers who ask a Scratch Team member first. I don't think that a lot of comments would be decreased as a result. And, I don't think it's necessarily annoying to the Scratch Team, as, technically, their job is not to answer comments on their profile.

Scratch Team members such as @Paddle2See graciously answers them anyway. (How nice!) Other Scratch Team members like @ceebee or @thisandagain are generally pretty good at this, too…but what about some others? It doesn't look like @designerd checks his/her profile very often (the reason on why he doesn't get many comments is because he doesn't check his profile often). It doesn't look like @dietbacon checks his/hers very often, either. Even @mres, creator of Scratch, doesn't routinely answer profile questions. It is clear that, if they get annoyed with profile comments, they just ignore them. They don't have to answer them.

REBUTTAL: Scratch Team members such as @Paddle2See are simply Community Moderators, which is why he responds more than members like @designerd, who actively work on programming Scratch. Well, so is @cheddargirl — she's a Community Moderator. And, she's closed comments on her profile for a while now. She has better things to do than answer simple questions, and @Paddle2See could easily do the same thing. But he doesn't because, well, maybe he enjoys answering the questions.

REBUTTAL: But if Scratch Team members ignore questions, then that's all the more reason to bring back the Discuss button. Well, you got me there. But what is stopping New Scratchers from asking other Scratchers on their profiles? Sorta the same as the forums. In this case, then, you could even help this New Scratcher get introduced to the forums:

You wrote:

Hi! I'm not sure I can answer your question, but if you post your question on this forum, I bet someone will have an answer! https://scratch.mit.edu/discuss/4/

Scratchers such as myself also go onto Scratch Team members' profiles and answer questions for them, so as to lessen the amount of work they need to do.

wWSunPandaWw wrote:

Besides, if they wanted to limit the use of the forums, they could just delete them.

Although you are right, I'm not sure what this would solve. If there is as much uproar over removing the Discuss tab as you claim there is, imagine what would happen if the Scratch Team decided to get rid of the forums entirely.



Now, let's get into the heart of this discussion. The suggestion has to be rejected for some reason. As laid forth in your original post, you have completely reasonable suggestions, most of which are wonderful ideas that are counterarguments to the announcement by @dietbacon. So…

BelieverSunGirl wrote:

I'm getting a feeling that they just don't like the discuss button and will do anything to keep the forums more private.

Hmm…what could this be? I have a feeling. Check this out:

Scratch Wiki wrote:

On the Scratch Website, if a blacklisted string is encountered in a comment or Project Notes, it automatically doesn't fit onto the website until the misfitting word is removed and the Scratch Team is notified.

Scratch Wiki wrote:

On the Scratch Forums, censored words are replaced with an asterisk. No notification is sent upon posts with censored words, but if any are found, users are encouraged to report them.

It appears to me that the forums are not moderated as heavily as the website itself. I could definitely be wrong, but perhaps this could be why the Scratch Team wants to make the forums a little less known — children may be exposed to inappropriate words/content that are not suitable for the website. Why don't they change the forums to reflect this, then? I don't know.

Another reason may be for confusion purposes. I haven't really been active on Scratch while the Discuss tab was present, but think about it — if that Discuss tab was on the top page, more people would see it. Some of these people may be New Scratchers. Some of these New Scratchers might just post random stuff, without reading any stickies. Some of these New Scratchers might necropost, troll, or act unconstructively. Some people may even use the opportunity to create bots to spam the forums. An increase in inappropriate post count means an increase in Reports, and ultimately, that can lead to more work for the Scratch Team.

It's true that bringing back the Discuss tab would help New Scratchers find the forums, but that's not always a good thing, as mentioned above. I think that, overall, I can propose this counter-suggestion as to why the Scratch Team may not want to bring back the Discuss button.

In order to reduce the amount of trolling, spam, necroposting, and inappropriate content, the Discuss button has been removed so it is less prominent on the Scratch Website. Scratchers are encouraged to introduce other New Scratchers to the forums, by means of replying to comments on their profiles, and on other Scratchers' profiles. Comments such as “You should post your question in this forum!” and “If you post your feedback to Scratch 3.0 here, the Scratch Team will see it!” and “I like playing Scrabble, too! Let's chat about it on this forum!” would help New Scratchers be introduced to what the Scratch forums are, and their purpose, better than a Discuss button ever would.

I think that pretty much sums up the Scratch Team's point. Again, I am not a Scratch Team member, so I could be completely wrong. But, @BelieverSunGirl, I hope that this post of mine helps to clear up any confusion. I'm serious when I say that your post is very well thought-out. You have amazing ideas, great rebuttals, expansive reasoning, and obvious dedication. But, if I were to argue in the case of the Scratch Team, I hope it is clear on why they might not want the Discuss button back.

If I were to say my personal opinion on it, I would probably say this:

Za-Chary would have wrote:

Neutral support.

Aside from this being a rejected suggestion, you clearly have some great ideas here. Your argument is clear, and well thought-out. Despite this, there must be some reason as to why the Scratch Team doesn't want to bring it back, and we should respect that.

I am not sure as to what this would solve, anyway. The four tabs up top are honestly more important than the Discuss tab, and Scratchers can just use the Discussion Forums tab at the bottom of the website. Another fundamentally important link is the “Contact Us” link (to discuss risky questions and banned accounts), but that isn't at the top of the website.

I see no real benefits, or downsides, to adding the Discuss button back.

I hope I didn't seem too mean in this post. Thanks for reading!

EDIT: @Paddle2See* has since responded to me, on my profile, regarding this specific post. His response:

Paddle2See* wrote:

Hey, I liked your post on the latest Discuss button topic. I don't know all the reasons either - but I think you are pretty close with your guesses. There is concern that the forums aren't the right place for Scratchers that are really new to the site. They can be confusing and they are not as well guarded as the main site so more vulnerable to spam and trolling. And I think it's a great idea to point them towards specific sections where you think they can benefit.

Bump it back

BelieverGirlSun wrote:

Bump it back

No, even better!


#BumpItBack

#BumpBackDiscuss

BelieverGirlSun wrote:

I told Paddle about this, and he said there were “other concerns ” as to why the button wouldn't be added back because of this suggestion and linked me to the announcement. I edited this to still keep the points they made in the announcement and he hasn't replied. I'm getting a feeling that they just don't like the discuss button and will do anything to keep the forums more private.

do you think they would add in the other edits? or do you think that they will completely ignore it because of the discuss button topic? I wonder… (sure hope not)

Bump

#BumpItBack (Second page)

#BumpItBack

#ScratchTeamPleaseFinallyConsiderThis

ANOTHER bump.
2nd page, of course.

buuump

Neutral support. The way you redesign the header to add the discuss button and make the search bar smaller is a good idea. Perhaps the discuss button could appear only if the person is a Scratcher?

Why do we have to keep bumping this? The ST should have added this long ago.