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ImpulseGamer
Scratcher
19 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

That will make it difficult for a lot of projects. I wonder why they changed the limit?

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Sheep_maker
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

ImpulseGamer wrote:

That will make it difficult for a lot of projects. I wonder why they changed the limit?
Probably moderation.

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tmgarci1
Scratcher
5 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

;-;
Tropic
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

Sheep_maker wrote:

ImpulseGamer wrote:

That will make it difficult for a lot of projects. I wonder why they changed the limit?
Probably moderation.
And some other reasons iirc; a ST member wrote a post about it somewhere here on this topic I think.



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hahasamian
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

Tropic wrote:

Sheep_maker wrote:

ImpulseGamer wrote:

That will make it difficult for a lot of projects. I wonder why they changed the limit?
Probably moderation.
And some other reasons iirc; a ST member wrote a post about it somewhere here on this topic I think.
*snicker*
Here you guys go.

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks,
As many of you have noticed we have added some limits to the Cloud Variables system that previously did not exist. We have added a 128 character limit and we are now restricting cloud variables to be numbers only (no hexadecimal, E-notation, etc). These new limits were put into place to prevent abuse of the cloud variables system that was causing it to be unreasonable to maintain, scale, moderate, and support financially. In addition, these new limits help reduce the possibility of projects like “Chat Rooms” (which are incredibly difficult for the ST to keep safe). We recognize that these new limits may impact some projects, but hope the community will be empathetic in understanding that as a non-profit Scratch needs to make sure that the services we provide are sustainable. Thanks for understanding and sorry it took a few days for us to clarify the situation.
I still don't understand this though.
It's just kinda dumb in my opinion.
Chat Rooms are just as dangerous as the Scratch comment system itself. You can find out who edited cloud variables and when, even if the project doesn't indicate who posted something. If someone's been saying things they shouldn't, the solution is just a report button away.
So the Chat Room argument makes no sense. Making sure the servers run well? I mean, kinda. But still, this is a very annoying choice. In my opinion, we Scratchers need more freedom, not less. We're not all just little kids tinkering around and making dumb stuff.
How said freedom can be given? Well, if we could run new forms of cloud variables off of our own severs, that'd be sweet.

Last edited by hahasamian (Dec. 8, 2018 19:33:11)


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imfh
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

hahasamian wrote:

Tropic wrote:

Sheep_maker wrote:

ImpulseGamer wrote:

That will make it difficult for a lot of projects. I wonder why they changed the limit?
Probably moderation.
And some other reasons iirc; a ST member wrote a post about it somewhere here on this topic I think.
*snicker*
Here you guys go.

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks,
As many of you have noticed we have added some limits to the Cloud Variables system that previously did not exist. We have added a 128 character limit and we are now restricting cloud variables to be numbers only (no hexadecimal, E-notation, etc). These new limits were put into place to prevent abuse of the cloud variables system that was causing it to be unreasonable to maintain, scale, moderate, and support financially. In addition, these new limits help reduce the possibility of projects like “Chat Rooms” (which are incredibly difficult for the ST to keep safe). We recognize that these new limits may impact some projects, but hope the community will be empathetic in understanding that as a non-profit Scratch needs to make sure that the services we provide are sustainable. Thanks for understanding and sorry it took a few days for us to clarify the situation.
I still don't understand this though.
It's just kinda dumb in my opinion.
Chat Rooms are just as dangerous as the Scratch comment system itself. You can find out who edited cloud variables and when, even if the project doesn't indicate who posted something. If someone's been saying things they shouldn't, the solution is just a report button away.
So the Chat Room argument makes no sense. Making sure the servers run well? I mean, kinda. But still, this is a very annoying choice. In my opinion, we Scratchers need more freedom, not less. We're not all just little kids tinkering around and making dumb stuff.
How said freedom can be given? Well, if we could run new forms of cloud variables off of our own severs, that'd be sweet.

Chat rooms are a whole lot harder to moderate than the Scratch comment system. The Scratch comment system has filters, report buttons per comment, are not encoded in numbers, and are easily visible by everyone. If the Scratch Team has to go inside a project, figure out how to decode the cloud, and go through potentially hundreds of numbers of cloud log(many cloud engines are not conservative with writes) just to possibly find someone saying mean things, it's not worth it.

The server will run it to problems without limitations, because if someone decides to write 1 million digits of pi to the server every .5 seconds per user, it's going to cause problems. Cloud variables couldn't be used with private servers either because while we may not all be little kids, there are little kids on here. That means that everything has to be moderatable which private servers non accessible to the Scratch Team definitely are not.

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thisandagain
Scratch Team
500+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

Hi folks, in preparation for the release of Scratch 3.0 cloud variables now have a limit of 256 characters. We are still considering other improvements / extensions to this system, but for now I hope you folks appreciate a little extra storage space.
MCAnimator3D
Scratcher
500+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks, in preparation for the release of Scratch 3.0 cloud variables now have a limit of 256 characters. We are still considering other improvements / extensions to this system, but for now I hope you folks appreciate a little extra storage space.
Ooooh, that's cool. I can't wait for what's in store for 3.0, even if the limit stays the same!



TheLogFather
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks, in preparation for the release of Scratch 3.0 cloud variables now have a limit of 256 characters. We are still considering other improvements / extensions to this system, but for now I hope you folks appreciate a little extra storage space.
Nice…

(And, yes, I think the extra storage is enough to make 10-player multiplayer more feasible, while not bringing the cloud servers down to their knees again.)


Hoping the “improvements/extensions” being considered include something like the Scratch player buffering cloud updates a little (to be sent in a single ‘lumped update’ request every frame or two, rather than each individual cloudvar update being sent as a separate request as soon as it happens), so reducing the common problem Scratchers have with cloud disconnect that comes from writing loops that naively update cloudvars every pass.

Also, of course, there's https://github.com/LLK/scratch-gui/issues/3358…


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Wettining
Scratcher
500+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks, in preparation for the release of Scratch 3.0 cloud variables now have a limit of 256 characters. We are still considering other improvements / extensions to this system, but for now I hope you folks appreciate a little extra storage space.
When you say characters do you mean that lettered storage will be allowed or is it just going to stay as numbers only?
Wettining
Scratcher
500+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

TheLogFather wrote:

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks, in preparation for the release of Scratch 3.0 cloud variables now have a limit of 256 characters. We are still considering other improvements / extensions to this system, but for now I hope you folks appreciate a little extra storage space.
Nice…

(And, yes, I think the extra storage is enough to make 10-player multiplayer more feasible, while not bringing the cloud servers down to their knees again.)


Hoping the “improvements/extensions” being considered include something like the Scratch player buffering cloud updates a little (to be sent in a single ‘lumped update’ request every frame or two, rather than each individual cloudvar update being sent as a separate request as soon as it happens), so reducing the common problem Scratchers have with cloud disconnect that comes from writing loops that naively update cloudvars every pass.

Also, of course, there's https://github.com/LLK/scratch-gui/issues/3358…

Why not have it in Frame Buffers and a ‘tick’ system (sort of like how most MMO games work)?
The tick-time could be adjusted by server load and the fact that you need to make it into a queue would let people with higher latency's get a better connection (instead of just being dropped).
RaiderJacJac
Scratcher
4 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

The “multiplayer” concept is no longer active, because cloud variables require you to refresh. Oh well.
128 character limit, and no words. I wish it didn't have to be this way.

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imfh
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

RaiderJacJac wrote:

The “multiplayer” concept is no longer active, because cloud variables require you to refresh. Oh well.
128 character limit, and no words. I wish it didn't have to be this way.

They are still live and don't require page refresh as far as I can tell. Multiplayer games can be made, you just have to be conservative. Here's a project that works and still has people play it from time to time(2 people on it at time of writing): slither.io by @griffpatch.

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Archival
Scratcher
36 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

jacobsmash1 wrote:

Everybody stop saying cloud is bad! The only reason why the scratch team made cloud in the first place was for simple stuff like hi-scores!

so are you on the scratchteam?


Maybe somebody should ask them instead of arguing.

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thisandagain
Scratch Team
500+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

Archival wrote:

jacobsmash1 wrote:

Everybody stop saying cloud is bad! The only reason why the scratch team made cloud in the first place was for simple stuff like hi-scores!

so are you on the scratchteam?


Maybe somebody should ask them instead of arguing.

That is true. Cloud Variables were created to support simple things like high-scores. Because of this, the architecture of Cloud Variables is not well suited to high-performance use cases (like multiplayer games). That said, I think that some of the ways in which people want to use them are really interesting. If we ever get around to a complete rethink of the system I would want to redesign and rearchitect it with these high performance / high concurrency use cases in mind.
modrapetka
Scratcher
100+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Archival wrote:

jacobsmash1 wrote:

Everybody stop saying cloud is bad! The only reason why the scratch team made cloud in the first place was for simple stuff like hi-scores!

so are you on the scratchteam?


Maybe somebody should ask them instead of arguing.

That is true. Cloud Variables were created to support simple things like high-scores. Because of this, the architecture of Cloud Variables is not well suited to high-performance use cases (like multiplayer games). That said, I think that some of the ways in which people want to use them are really interesting. If we ever get around to a complete rethink of the system I would want to redesign and rearchitect it with these high performance / high concurrency use cases in mind.

May I suggest (the suggestion board is ignored, so I post here) a post noting these limits to high-end projects? Since Scratch is not designed for anything complicated, let's at least stop people from wasting time.

We cannot answer every question, but I bet we can answer any question.
AFocusOnLisp
New to Scratch
13 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Archival wrote:

jacobsmash1 wrote:

Everybody stop saying cloud is bad! The only reason why the scratch team made cloud in the first place was for simple stuff like hi-scores!

so are you on the scratchteam?


Maybe somebody should ask them instead of arguing.

That is true. Cloud Variables were created to support simple things like high-scores. Because of this, the architecture of Cloud Variables is not well suited to high-performance use cases (like multiplayer games). That said, I think that some of the ways in which people want to use them are really interesting. If we ever get around to a complete rethink of the system I would want to redesign and rearchitect it with these high performance / high concurrency use cases in mind.
So much for “low floor, high ceiling.”
Nambaseking01
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

thisandagain wrote:

Hi folks,
As many of you have noticed we have added some limits to the Cloud Variables system that previously did not exist. We have added a 128 character limit and we are now restricting cloud variables to be numbers only (no hexadecimal, E-notation, etc). These new limits were put into place to prevent abuse of the cloud variables system that was causing it to be unreasonable to maintain, scale, moderate, and support financially. In addition, these new limits help reduce the possibility of projects like “Chat Rooms” (which are incredibly difficult for the ST to keep safe). We recognize that these new limits may impact some projects, but hope the community will be empathetic in understanding that as a non-profit Scratch needs to make sure that the services we provide are sustainable. Thanks for understanding and sorry it took a few days for us to clarify the situation.

I understand, but Helixable has still made a chat room, could you please see that project and tell me if that is necessarily allowed?

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coolguy73921
Scratcher
21 posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

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cuddley
Scratcher
100+ posts

Cloud Variables Limited to 128 Characters Now?

Cloud variables are now effectively useless

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