Discuss Scratch

jromagnoli
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

walkcycle wrote:

Blaze349 wrote:

Because it shows bias. Official political bias.
Can you elaborate? Where is the problem in curating a project the curator feels should be curated? It is going to be necessary to make a decision.

cul8er wrote:

OK then, many if not most Christians believe that gay marriage is wrong.
Looks like there's differences and lots of support. Why are you opposed to gay marriage?

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I, like the OP, do not object to ideas such as same-gender marriage. Anyone wishing to undermine LGBT respect will not find my support. However, using a platform used by young, impressionable children to push *any* cause is an underhanded tactic. People should decide their own morals when they are mature enough. If they rationally decide that LGBT is wrong, so be it, but their stance should come from their own, independent thought.
So censorship of LGBT topics? What does that mean for LGBT people?
It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.


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jromagnoli
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

walkcycle wrote:

-TheBlackParade- wrote:

I would hate to see such an amazing way for children to become programmers ruined by politics..

It's been going strong 10+ years, rainbow flags and respectfully-expressed opinions with persistence. The sky does not seem to be falling because a spectrum of color adorns the front page.

Censoring part of the community: not the solution.

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.


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cul8er
Scratcher
500+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Blaze349 wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

That is exactly what this topic is: YOU are choosing to censor the website on what can be shown on the front page.

How does censorship help people make their own decisions?


It's been going strong 10+ years, rainbow flags and respectfully-expressed opinions with persistence. The sky does not seem to be falling because a spectrum of color adorns the front page.

Censoring part of the community: not the solution.

It isn't censoring them. It is simply applying the same standards. On my profile I have a Pepe the Frog project. It is probably marked NFE(rightfully so too). I wouldn't support the Scratch team featuring projects like mine that show a strong political bias. If it was on top loved or top remixed then it would be alright.
Well said.

walkcycle wrote:

cul8er wrote:

The problem is, the ST expressing their views is harmful. Making comments on an unresolved, non-trivial, polarizing, highly political issue causes users with a different view, particularly an opposite view, to feel unwelcomed on Scratch.

Respectfully expressing views is not harmful. The issue is resolved in the community guidelines:

If you think a project or comment is mean, insulting, too violent, or otherwise inappropriate, click “Report” to let us know about it.

Scratch welcomes people of all ages, races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and gender identities.

Excluding the projects of people who express who they are and the love they support from the front page is not welcoming. It is the opposite: it is censorship.

cul8er wrote:

And what does it matter whether offence is intentional or not? It has the same effect.
I don't understand how seeing someone else with an opinion different from your own is an offense. But if you know the intent behind a presentation is not to offend, why would that not be different?
Did anyone ever say anything about a front-page ban? Although it's true that the Featured Projects and Featured Studios would fall under this ban, the rest of the front page will be unaffected.

That quote from the CG sets out what to do if you find an project or comment that YOU think is inappropriate - it's not defining what is inappropriate or not.

That last quote has been taken out of context. It's referring to a hypothetical political statement made by the ST, not just ‘someone else’. To reiterate why that can be offensive:
The ST has a great deal of influence on the Scratch website
If the ST supports (or rejects) a side of a controversial political issue, this tends to be interpreted as Scratch's official position.
Users of Scratch who have a different, particularly an opposite view will feel unwelcome on the site as a result.

You seem to be arguing as if this ban would only effect LGBT-related stuff and would apply to the whole site. Relax: Users will and should keep their right to freedom of speech on this issue as they currently have. And it will apply to other political and religious issues as well.

EDIT: Unnecessary blank lines

Last edited by cul8er (June 29, 2017 12:57:54)


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Penguin9090_new
Scratcher
500+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

walkcycle wrote:

Smurphy13AWESOME wrote:

You make a good point, and I am not against you. But still, there are young, little children on here who could be given an impression about social or political things, not that this is bad, but what if it was other stuff? Also, the ST is extremely against dividing the community. Though they just took a big step towards dividing it. I don't think this stuff is wrong, I just think it might ruin Scratch.
It is this stuff. Young people are LGBT too. Human beings deserve not to be shunned or excluded for who they are.
How many young people do you think are LGBT+? I highly doubt an 8 year old even has sexual attractions. Youngest is maybe, 11?
If Scratch removes pro-LGBT projects from the front page, it isn't shunning anyone. After all, pro-Christian projects never make the front page, and you wouldn't say Christians are shunned. Excluding opinionated projects front page makes this site more open for people, not less, because people won't see a view they opposed on the front page. And Scratch has already been marking most political projects as NFE anyway, why should LGBT+ be any different?

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Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

I would like to quote verbatim comments that I had made in a conversation with TheMonsterOfTheDeep on my profile explaining my opposition on a suggestion for a LGBT pride flag sprite.

@TheMonsterOfTheDeep I think that the Scratch Team would be stepping out of line to promote social causes because the people in the userbase may not be mature enough to formulate their own opinions and therefore blindly accept what the Scratch Team says is right. I actually didn't know about the LGBTQA+ movement until the Scratch Team started the trend of having rainbow icons. (I did know what homosexuality was, though.) Being younger, I just thought, “Yay, rainbows and trends are exciting!” and decided to help advocate for the cause because a lot of other people were doing it. Now, I have decided on my own that LGBTQA+ is okay, but I feel like the Scratch Team chose my stance for me. I'm sure that a lot of other users are also supporting LGBTQA+ just because of it is sensationalized and don't actually fully understand all of the viewpoints. I don't like how LGBTQA+ is sensationalized and people make a big deal out of what gender(s) they are attracted to because I believe that we should celebrate our inner traits, such as interests and talents, not immutable characteristics. I believe that in an egalitarian society, people shouldn't care if you're male, female, nonbinary, European, African, Asian, Native American, Australian, straight, gay, bisexual, etc. People should instead think, “You like programming/art/writing/singing/etc? I do, too! Let's be friends!” or “Great job on winning that competition; you are so smart!” I think that identity politics misses the point of equality.

<reply>

@TheMonsterOfTheDeep That is the reason why I dislike identity politics in general. I believe that the LGBTQA+ flag encourages identity politics, so I don't think that Scratch should have it. I also do not want Scratch to be openly liberal because I find that some “liberals” are ironically closed-minded to conservative ideas and believe that all conservatives are bigots, and having a vocal liberal voice on Scratch could further this idea. I used to think badly of conservatives because Scratch was a liberal echo chamber, but now I've learned to expand my worldview and find that I don't agree with everything that is liberal. I do not endorse anti-LGBTQA+ ideas, but I believe that the best way to turn an enemy into an ally is to tolerate the different idea and constructively debate it; however, many liberals tend to jump up and say, “OMG u bigot!!” and cause the other person to further resent whatever minority group that the liberals were defending. Having a LGBTQA+ flag sprite would predominantly bring people who are too young to think for themselves to the cause (because a mature person isn't going to reconsider their stance just because of a sprite) while pressuring anti-LGBTQA+ people into privately harboring their ideas, as opposed to turning them into allies, while increasing their resentment towards “political correctness” and members of the LGBTQA+ community.

<reply>

@TheMonsterOfTheDeep I think that individual users, including Scratch Team members, can make LGBTQA+ projects, but Scratch itself should not promote the cause. Cracking down on identity politics would be as equally inappropriate as promoting a cause.

Also, you might find this discussion relevant: https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/297859/can-stack-overflow-and-metas-logos-be-changed-temporarily-to-the-loveoverflow

Last edited by Chibi-Matoran (June 29, 2017 13:38:19)


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walkcycle
Scratcher
500+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Galleigo wrote:

well if i express anti-lgbt views… *cough* alert *coughcough*
If you follow the community guidelines, you will be fine. I have asked others, but they don't seem to want to share. Why do you have anti-lgbt views?

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.

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jromagnoli
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

walkcycle wrote:

Galleigo wrote:

well if i express anti-lgbt views… *cough* alert *coughcough*
If you follow the community guidelines, you will be fine. I have asked others, but they don't seem to want to share. Why do you have anti-lgbt views?

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
This ^^


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walkcycle
Scratcher
500+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
With respect to the pride project on the front page, is your position to support or oppose inclusion?

jromagnoli wrote:

This ^^
Yes. It means part of the website and community would be censored.
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Remember everybody, morality is relative. I personally do not think that LGBT is bad, and I strongly disagree with those who wish to pass laws to restrict LGBT people, especially for religious reasons. However, I suppose that opponents are listening to their own moral compass, and they were brought up believing that concepts such as homosexuality are bad. I believe that what behaviors are acceptable is determined by the general consensus of society, and the truth is that for better or for worse, a lot of societies across the globe are not accepting of LGBT. I'm not saying that I don't wish that such societies would become more tolerant; I'm saying that morality is a point of view. From the perspective of the other side, moral relativism is what allows for growing acceptance of LGBT. Of course, I don't think that the Scratch Team should tolerate fringe ideologies such as Nazism that are almost universally detested, but in the case of current controversies, the moral divide is greater and not universally agreed upon. This suggestion does not aim to discriminate against LGBT; it simply asks the Scratch Team not to promote social causes in general. Remember that moral relativism goes both ways; would you feel comfortable if you were a capitalist and the Scratch Team officially supported socialism, or if you supported software freedom and the Scratch Team endorsed proprietary software?

Even though I support LGBT, as a general principle, I believe that people should always act for what they *personally* think is right, even if I do not agree. Although I may attempt to persuade others who think differently to change their views, I never feel comfortable intimidating them into acting against their own moral beliefs. No one entity should have the authority to determine the morality of the entirety of society; rather, morality is dependent on the opinions of each and every person in society. Therefore, the Scratch Team should not attempt to sway the opinions on a moral controversy in its favor.

Last edited by Chibi-Matoran (June 29, 2017 14:31:55)


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Penguin9090_new
Scratcher
500+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
There is sort of a “soft censorship” on religious/political projects, because many people don't agree with them, thus less love-its.
However, it seems that a strong majority favors LGBT+ projects, thus they are not effected by the “soft” censorship.
I don't think that political projects or any kind (including LGBT+) should be on the front page, especially featured.
I wouldn't mind that much if they were on top loved/remixed though.

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MeIoetta
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Penguin9090_new wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
There is sort of a “soft censorship” on religious/political projects, because many people don't agree with them, thus less love-its.
However, it seems that a strong majority favors LGBT+ projects, thus they are not effected by the “soft” censorship.
I don't think that political projects or any kind (including LGBT+) should be on the front page, especially featured.
I wouldn't mind that much if they were on top loved/remixed though.
actually, you're not allowed to say that lgbt is wrong, it counts as “discrimination”

i love jellyfish
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

MeIoetta wrote:

Penguin9090_new wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
There is sort of a “soft censorship” on religious/political projects, because many people don't agree with them, thus less love-its.
However, it seems that a strong majority favors LGBT+ projects, thus they are not effected by the “soft” censorship.
I don't think that political projects or any kind (including LGBT+) should be on the front page, especially featured.
I wouldn't mind that much if they were on top loved/remixed though.
actually, you're not allowed to say that lgbt is wrong, it counts as “discrimination”
The Scratch Community Guidelines state that the community must be welcoming to people of all sexual orientations and gender identities. Your comments must not make other people feel unsafe.

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MeIoetta
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

MeIoetta wrote:

Penguin9090_new wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

walkcycle wrote:

jromagnoli wrote:

It's not censorship at all, individually anyone can display support for anything, he's saying that the website should not promote any political idea though as they are pushing it on young kids.
The point of this suggestion is to censor the front page to not show certain projects.

jromagnoli wrote:

You are taking this out of context, there is no censorship of anyone's opinion, just that the scratch team should not promote one viewpoint over the other.
This suggestion is to promote censorship on the front page. That is censoring part of the community.
Scratch would be censoring LGBT if it were to mark all such projects as NFE. The OP just doesn't want the Scratch Team to explicitly and deliberately choose LGBT projects for the front page.
There is sort of a “soft censorship” on religious/political projects, because many people don't agree with them, thus less love-its.
However, it seems that a strong majority favors LGBT+ projects, thus they are not effected by the “soft” censorship.
I don't think that political projects or any kind (including LGBT+) should be on the front page, especially featured.
I wouldn't mind that much if they were on top loved/remixed though.
actually, you're not allowed to say that lgbt is wrong, it counts as “discrimination”
The Scratch Community Guidelines state that the community must be welcoming to people of all sexual orientations and gender identities. Your comments must not make other people feel unsafe.
No, anything that is against lgbt is not allowed to post, even if it is a respectful message.

i love jellyfish
Smurphy13AWESOME
Scratcher
100+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Okay, people, it wrong because the ST is sort of dividing the community between supporters and no supporters, which they are trying to prevent. But it's okay because they are people who can express theirs own feeling and opinions like any other Scratcher, thats why I have not decided my stance and why we are getting ceebee's opinion…

Call me Smurphy! Main account. Check out my projects, the link to my profile is just to the left.(Click the picture) Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything. Stat aut cadet. If you want to reply please do it on my profile.

- Smurphy
duckboycool
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

MeIoetta wrote:

No, anything that is against lgbt is not allowed to post, even if it is a respectful message.
That is not true. You can post anything as long as it follows the community guidelines. There is no rule that you can't be opposed to LGBTQ+ in the community guidelines, and there shouldn't be as this is just somebody's opinion.

I used to be active on the forums, but I have mostly moved past Scratch. I still do check my Scratch messages, so if you'd like to talk to me, just pop a comment on my profile. My main project on Scratch was Cookie Clicker, but I've also recently made a project called Snake Snake, a game based off of Snake, but there are two snakes, and you can play either singleplayer or multiplayer.

MeIoetta
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

duckboycool wrote:

MeIoetta wrote:

No, anything that is against lgbt is not allowed to post, even if it is a respectful message.
That is not true. You can post anything as long as it follows the community guidelines. There is no rule that you can't be opposed to LGBTQ+ in the community guidelines, and there shouldn't be as this is just somebody's opinion.
well, I said once that not all homophobes discriminate, and got an alert for that.

i love jellyfish
duckboycool
Scratcher
1000+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

MeIoetta wrote:

duckboycool wrote:

MeIoetta wrote:

No, anything that is against lgbt is not allowed to post, even if it is a respectful message.
That is not true. You can post anything as long as it follows the community guidelines. There is no rule that you can't be opposed to LGBTQ+ in the community guidelines, and there shouldn't be as this is just somebody's opinion.
well, I said once that not all homophobes discriminate, and got an alert for that.
I think the reason you got an alert was by how you used the slightly rude term “homophobes”, and not because of you making a somewhat anti-LGBTQ statement. I am at least pretty sure about this anyway.

I used to be active on the forums, but I have mostly moved past Scratch. I still do check my Scratch messages, so if you'd like to talk to me, just pop a comment on my profile. My main project on Scratch was Cookie Clicker, but I've also recently made a project called Snake Snake, a game based off of Snake, but there are two snakes, and you can play either singleplayer or multiplayer.

ceebee
Scratch Team
100+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

Thanks for bringing this up. If we understand correctly, the issue you’re raising is that it’s hard to be a Scratcher and have members of the Scratch Team share content which may not match your own opinions or beliefs. We understand this concern, and will continue to discuss it as a team.

We think it’s important to explain why we chose to feature a project supporting Pride Month, and why Scratch Team members sometimes share projects or icons related to LGBTQ+ issues. The Community Guidelines say, “Scratch welcomes people of all ages, races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and gender identities.” We believe Scratch should be a space for people to express themselves and share what is important to their lives such as race, gender, religion, etc. We feel respectful comments, projects, and studios about LGBTQ+ are appropriate for the Scratch website. When someone shares their identity, or celebrates their friend’s identity, we want to support that. When someone shares something that is against another person’s identity, we see that as unfriendly and unwelcoming. As members of the Scratch community, Scratch Team members create and share projects about topics important to us, and for some of us, that includes sharing LGBTQ-related projects. And we hope this will inspire other Scratchers to create content about topics that are important to their lives.

In regards to concerns about the recent feature of a “Pride Month” related project. We chose to feature this because it was a project related to a current event, Pride Month, which is important to many people on Scratch. Moreover, the project had a supportive message and expressed the desire of a group to be treated with the same dignity and respect as members of any other group - which we think is a cornerstone of the Scratch Community. The decision to feature a project about a current event is not unique. In fact, we often feature projects related to events that are important to many Scratchers. This includes holidays like Christmas, Easter, Lunar New Year, Hanukkah, and Ramadan and events like the beginning of school or Pi Day. We appreciate that Scratchers can remain respectful of the many diverse events and holidays celebrated on Scratch even when some events aren’t important to some individuals.

Thanks and I hope this clarifies your questions.
Smurphy13AWESOME
Scratcher
100+ posts

The Scratch Team Should Not Make Political Statements

ceebee wrote:

Thanks for bringing this up. If we understand correctly, the issue you’re raising is that it’s hard to be a Scratcher and have members of the Scratch Team share content which may not match your own opinions or beliefs. We understand this concern, and will continue to discuss it as a team.

We think it’s important to explain why we chose to feature a project supporting Pride Month, and why Scratch Team members sometimes share projects or icons related to LGBTQ+ issues. The Community Guidelines say, “Scratch welcomes people of all ages, races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and gender identities.” We believe Scratch should be a space for people to express themselves and share what is important to their lives such as race, gender, religion, etc. We feel respectful comments, projects, and studios about LGBTQ+ are appropriate for the Scratch website. When someone shares their identity, or celebrates their friend’s identity, we want to support that. When someone shares something that is against another person’s identity, we see that as unfriendly and unwelcoming. As members of the Scratch community, Scratch Team members create and share projects about topics important to us, and for some of us, that includes sharing LGBTQ-related projects. And we hope this will inspire other Scratchers to create content about topics that are important to their lives.

In regards to concerns about the recent feature of a “Pride Month” related project. We chose to feature this because it was a project related to a current event, Pride Month, which is important to many people on Scratch. Moreover, the project had a supportive message and expressed the desire of a group to be treated with the same dignity and respect as members of any other group - which we think is a cornerstone of the Scratch Community. The decision to feature a project about a current event is not unique. In fact, we often feature projects related to events that are important to many Scratchers. This includes holidays like Christmas, Easter, Lunar New Year, Hanukkah, and Ramadan and events like the beginning of school or Pi Day. We appreciate that Scratchers can remain respectful of the many diverse events and holidays celebrated on Scratch even when some events aren’t important to some individuals.

Thanks and I hope this clarifies your questions.
Wow! You actually answered! Thanks for the clarification, but don't you think it could be a risk to dividing the community?

Call me Smurphy! Main account. Check out my projects, the link to my profile is just to the left.(Click the picture) Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything. Stat aut cadet. If you want to reply please do it on my profile.

- Smurphy

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