Congratulations on making one of the most cliche and overused arguments on this website. Every time I see someone say this as an excuse to dismiss a perfectly legitimate suggestion with one fell swoop I physically cringe inside at the level this community has devolved to regarding the social aspect of Scratch.

Why do I say it's so harmful? Why don't I just move on with my life? I say it, dear reader, because whenever someone uses it or anything like it, they contribute to the monster that is the hive mind of the Scratch suggestions forum. For the uninformed, this is the culture of slogans and tag lines such as ‘support’, ‘no support’, ‘as per this’ &c that turn any productive discussion into complete and utter moot.

“Discussion”, that is, if you can call it that, like this only teaches newcomers to these forums that this is the norm here and that it is to be followed. It teaches them to not think about suggestions they are reading and either dismiss them using a tag line or say what everyone else has been saying, while maybe adding an ‘as per this’ to give some illusion of originality. It teaches them to blend in with everyone else. It teaches them to not deviate from convention.

Is that what we, as a community, want to teach newcomers? I think not. I propose that, as a community, we collectively decide that these types of posts are not okay. We need some innovation in Scratch in general, and I think a good place to start is where people come to discuss it.

And your suggestion is?

Lol jk. But you're right, Scratch is not about popularity, but does that mean we should remove loves, favorites, and following because “Scratch isn't about popularity”? I think this would be perfect for the “How to Use Suggestions” sticky (see signature)

I can agree with the sentiment expressed in this post. Whenever I post in this forum these days, I do try to add something to the conversation, whether a complication the op hadn't considered, or the logistics behind why I think this should be added. And because of this, I've been using the one-note “support” and “no-support” increasingly less.

But when people say “Scratch is not about popularity”, they have a valid point to make. It's hackneyed and cliché, yes, but that doesn't detract from the truth of the argument. Scratch is a visual programming language meant to teach people how to program for the first time. Because of the fact that people aren't necessarily using the service as part of a class, there are social media-esque functions like comments and loves, to recieve feedback on projects; following, favoriting, backpacking, and features, for easy access to others' “good” scripts and assets; and the forums, where Scratchers like you and me can seek out assistance with programming, collaborate, and discuss how to make Scratch better. Popularity is a side-effect of the existing features. Pitching new ideas for the sole sake of altering popularity undermines this philosophy.

You didn't actually make a good argument against these “slogans” and “tag lines”. Being overused in general doesn't make an individual statement untrue. I tell people the weather is cloudy because it is, not because I'm some Neanderthal troglodyte too occupied following conversational standards to exercise the most basic level of freethought.

I guess those no-supporters just think our current social media buttons are enough and that the ST should be spending time on other things

I completely disagree with everything listed in the original post. Some people want to use Scratch as what it's intended to be, a coding language. Most schools block social media because they want the students to focus on their work when using the Internet. If Scratch leans too close to becoming a social media, bad things begin to happen. Also, by trying to shame me based on my logic (Scratch isn't about popularity) you're being very disrespectful.

If you read the post, you will see that I never mention you. What reason do you have to feel disrespected?

Scratch is in no way merely “a coding language”, it's also a community with people sharing ideas and creations, and a strong one, despite its flaws. Scratch does not exist in a vacuum. It is tied, like it or not, to its community. However this is irrelevant. I'm not trying to disparage the argument that you are trying to make, but the way others express it.

The reason I focused on that one sentence is because it has been used so much for such a variety of reasons that it has all but lost its meaning. Normally, people say it without elaborating or without reason. I respect you if you try to make actual arguments based on your opinions. That is a great thing to do. But I lose what respect I have the moment those arguments rely on catchphrases and slogans.

Sheep_maker wrote:

I guess those no-supporters just think our current social media buttons are enough and that the ST should be spending time on other things

Personally, I don't think they're “enough”, I think they are just meant to serve another purpose, which may not be entirely clear if you think about them in a social media context.

Ninkancho wrote:

Because of the fact that people aren't necessarily using the service as part of a class, there are social media-esque functions like comments and loves, to recieve feedback on projects; following, favoriting, backpacking, and features, for easy access to others' “good” scripts and assets; and the forums, where Scratchers like you and me can seek out assistance with programming, collaborate, and discuss how to make Scratch better. Popularity is a side-effect of the existing features.

I don't know what the other objectors' logic is, though; just speaking on my own behalf.

I see what you mean. However, everyone is doing their best to express their comments constructively and actually discuss things, and the Scratch Team does encourage using supporting reasons. So your suggestion is technically implemented already.

No support, workaroundable.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

No support, workaroundable.

I was gonna post that!!!1!!!1

No, but yes, I agree completely.

Ninkancho wrote:

You didn't actually make a good argument against these “slogans” and “tag lines”. Being overused in general doesn't make an individual statement untrue. I tell people the weather is cloudy because it is, not because I'm some Neanderthal troglodyte too occupied following conversational standards to exercise the most basic level of freethought.

The reason these are bad is because they don't actually address the merits of a suggestion. Sure, Scratch might not be built for the express purpose of popularity, but saying “no support, Scratch isn't about popularity” is antagonistic to constructive discussion. There is no consideration of how useful the feature might be, how many people want it, how well it would fit in with the Scratch website as it currently stands, and how it may benefit (or not benefit) the Scratch community as a whole. Suggestions need to be considered on a case-by-case basis with thought given to why they may or may not be needed and how they may benefit or harm the Scratch community. Using a “tagline” not only does not show consideration towards that suggestion and its individual problems and merits, but also does not actually address whether or not the suggestion is a good idea. “Scratch is not about popularity” provides absolutely no information. That is not a reason that counts against the suggestion, it is merely a statement about the website that in fact has no impact on a suggestion.

Except the implication is that the suggestion would make Scratch more popularity-based, which would compromise other purposes of the website. Yes, our “slogans” aren't one-size-fits-all, but they do cover most suggestions that conflict with the goals of the Scratch Team.

Ninkancho wrote:

Except the implication is that the suggestion would make Scratch more popularity-based, which would compromise other purposes of the website. Yes, our “slogans” aren't one-size-fits-all, but they do cover most suggestions that conflict with the goals of the Scratch Team.

But they are entirely useless without further explanation. Simply saying “no support, Scratch is not about popularity” without further explanation is identical to saying “no support, workaroundable” without the workaround.

I would like to add that many topics that do receive “Scratch is not about popularity” answers are not well-thought and the forum posters have often seen duplicates that could not get off the ground. There really isn't much to discuss on these suggestions.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I would like to add that many topics that do receive “Scratch is not about popularity” answers are not well-thought and the forum posters have often seen duplicates that could not get off the ground. There really isn't much to discuss on these suggestions.

I agree with this post. Too many times, I see this phrase being used without actual supporting statements. While I prefer that this statement to not be used as much as possible, there are times I have to explain that Scratch can't be a “life” of one person. So really, its more of an issue of finding what the user wants to do in life and pursue it than a “need of popularity” issue.

Half of a quarter support (Does that even make since?) I agree we shouldn't JUST say that, but the love and favorite buttons are supposed to show what you like, not if they're popular. If the Loves, Favorites, and views are to show popularity, then why doesn't it appear whenever the project appears in search/profiles/FP/Anywhere? You don't really have an argument in my opinion.

Can I add this to my sticky?
It would fit in well there

Sigton

the2000 wrote:

Half of a quarter support (Does that even make since?) I agree we shouldn't JUST say that, but the love and favorite buttons are supposed to show what you like, not if they're popular. If the Loves, Favorites, and views are to show popularity, then why doesn't it appear whenever the project appears in search/profiles/FP/Anywhere? You don't really have an argument in my opinion.

Maybe you should read the rest of it. The popularity stuff is just the introduction. The real message here is about sloppy responses that it is clear no effort was put into.

Sigton wrote:

Can I add this to my sticky?
It would fit in well there

Sigton

Um, if you want I guess! Although if it were my sticky I'd definitely pick one that didn't sound quite so antagonistic!

so whats the suggestion here

scrooge100 wrote:

so whats the suggestion here

Not really a suggestion for the Scratch Team, but one for the community. I was hoping to generate discussion.

birdoftheday wrote:

I propose that, as a community, we collectively decide that these types of posts are not okay. We need some innovation in Scratch in general, and I think a good place to start is where people come to discuss it.

TheMonsterOfTheDeep wrote:

Ninkancho wrote:

Except the implication is that the suggestion would make Scratch more popularity-based, which would compromise other purposes of the website. Yes, our “slogans” aren't one-size-fits-all, but they do cover most suggestions that conflict with the goals of the Scratch Team.

But they are entirely useless without further explanation. Simply saying “no support, Scratch is not about popularity” without further explanation is identical to saying “no support, workaroundable” without the workaround.

Exactly.

DownsGameClub wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I would like to add that many topics that do receive “Scratch is not about popularity” answers are not well-thought and the forum posters have often seen duplicates that could not get off the ground. There really isn't much to discuss on these suggestions.

I agree with this post. Too many times, I see this phrase being used without actual supporting statements.

So true.

birdoftheday wrote:

Congratulations on making one of the most cliche and overused arguments on this website. Every time I see someone say this as an excuse to dismiss a perfectly legitimate suggestion with one fell swoop I physically cringe inside at the level this community has devolved to regarding the social aspect of Scratch.

“Discussion”, that is, if you can call it that, like this only teaches newcomers to these forums that this is the norm here and that it is to be followed. It teaches them to not think about suggestions they are reading and either dismiss them using a tag line or say what everyone else has been saying, while maybe adding an ‘as per this’ to give some illusion of originality.
Is that what we, as a community, want to teach newcomers? I think not. I propose that, as a community, we collectively decide that these types of posts are not okay. We need some innovation in Scratch in general, and I think a good place to start is where people come to discuss it.

Why I support.