Discuss Scratch

Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!



Now, this is a bit of a different suggestion in the way that it's not directed at the ST but at the users of the suggestions forum.

May I note, that this isn't a suggestion. It's a set of philosophies that we are recommending you use because it will ultimately help everyone make better quality posts and ideas. Please just take what we are saying on-board here.

Replying to Suggestions

1st Suggestion:

My first suggestion is that you all give up on this whole support/no support convention, because it is not helping anything and ultimately downgrading the quality of replies across the forum.

Saying simply “support” or “no support” is adding nothing to the discussion, it is doing nothing to help improve the suggestion.

What should be happening, is someone makes a suggestion. People read this suggestion, and give their opinion on how to make it better. Build on other's ideas and more good quality suggestions will be made, rather than it being a big rush to see who can get the most supporters on their suggestion.

People are obsessing over this whole idea, and the goal has turned to getting as many supporters as possible and not paying any attention to the suggestion itself.

birthoftheday gives a fantastic example as to why this convention is useless;

birdoftheday wrote:

Imagine if someone made a suggestion to translate Scratch into Esperanto. For the uninformed, Esperanto is a language devised so that people from all kinds of countries can communicate with each other easily. Sounds great, right?

Right. This suggestion, outlining all the virtues of the language, has overwhelming support from the community. Who wouldn't want Scratch to be in a language that everybody speaks? It gets thousands of support posts overnight.

There are lots of people who bring up the problems with this idea. Why would you translate Scratch into Esperanto? Isn't it enough to have Scratch in all the different languages that people normally speak? Would it be worth the effort to undergo a whole translation project for something that nobody would use? Needless to say, these people are drowned out by all the ‘SUPPORT’ and ‘GREAT IDEA!!!’ posts that the community loves to make. Virtually no discussion happens on the topic because nobody cares about argument, they just care about flooding the suggestion with votes so that it might be implemented. If enough people like the suggestion, they say, it has to be implemented! They're wrong.

Now let's look at something else that could happen. Instead of thousands of ‘SUPPORT’ votes flooding in, people who like the suggestion bring up what might be good about the suggestion, and what might be bad and how it can be fixed. People who have negative opinions about the idea try to suggest things that can fix it. In the end, it is decided that the translation would not be necessary because people had a conversation about it.

The moral of the story is that for most things, thousands of votes don't work. There's a reason this place is called called “Discussion” and not “Ballot Box”. Things have to be decided via discussion, not mindless voting. Think of what Scratch could be if we changed and molded suggestions instead of supporting or not supporting them as they stand.

So, please, just take the time to make a constructive reply that makes someone else's idea better.
2nd Suggestion:

Secondly, I'm also disliking the fact people are jumping to conclusions about suggestions. People are picking out the smallest reason to down a suggestion, or just downing a suggestion simply because they don't understand it. For example, I saw this:

Anonymous wrote:

I have no idea what you're asking for. No support until further notice.
This isn't even asking for an explanation before making a conclusion. It was in fact this quote that finally drove me to making this topic. It added nothing to the discussion, and just downed the suggestion before even having the basic knowledge about it to draw a decent conclusion.

Please read the suggestion, and if you don't understand it, ask for clarification.
3rd Suggestion:

Furthermore, I find there is a very high level of negativity towards suggestions. The bad points are always picked out, and from there things just go downhill. People give up on suggestions because of minor flaws, and don't try to solve these problems; again taking us back to the first suggestion of adding to the discussion and building on ideas.

Try to find the good things about a suggestion, and what makes it great. If there are problems, give ideas on how to fix them. Don't simply walk away if it isn't perfect, because it's the job of the people who view the suggestion to help improve it.
4th Suggestion:
(Thanks to goldfish678)

If you're looking at a block suggestion, please don't post something like this:

Anonymous wrote:

This is unnecessary. No support.
Have you ever gotten something like that before? Either way, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that as a stubborn response from people and how many times I've had to explain that the reason that all of the blocks in Scratch are even there is not because they're “necessary”, they're there because they could open up possibilities and expand the creativity of users' projects. Note the word creativity.
Unfortunately, these people never get back to me, even if it's not my suggestion, which can really get on my nerves sometimes.
And I know this whole thing was written in second person, but moral of the story: please, think before you post and save us all time trying to give everybody constant explanations logically disproving things that weren't really thought through very well.
Fifth Suggestion:
(Thanks to alexphan)

Don't simply quote somebody, or do ^^^, or “As per this”, or any other alias you can find. It is just copying what the person before said before, and saying the same thing twice isn't going to help the discussion nor the idea. Try to add your own, original idea to make it a better idea!

Sixth Suggestion:
(Thanks to Tymewalk)

Stop saying this:
No support, there's a workaround.

The point of Scratch is to be a challenge, not just hand every block over to the user on a sliver platter. Users should work to get these scripts, not just have it done for them.
It's that last sentence especially that gets me angry. People just discard an idea because it “makes things too easy”.

The common response is “why do we have move () steps then”, but it goes much farther than that - why do we have “go to” if we can use “set x” and “set y”? Why use any of the pen stuff, you can replicate it with “stamp”? Why have clones, just make other sprites?

The answer is because not everything has to be challenging. So what if “real programming languages don't do that”? Scratch is supposed to be an introduction to programming, meaning that it's easier. And yes, there are cases where you have to say “no support”. But don't just say it because “it's not challenging enough”.

A block that calculates the sunset based on the user's given location? That's a little too far. A block that converts a “days since 2000” to real-time? That would be OK.

So please, take the time to read through suggestions before dissing them as “not challenging enough”.
Seventh Suggestion:

People who only warn Scratchers on the forums for doing something against these suggestions. I'd like to say something:

That's utterly counter intuitive.

The point of this sticky is to give you suggestions on what to and not to do. Simply warning someone is not adding to discussion, which is one of the main points here. Please, if you find someone doing:

1. Breaking a Guideline

Don't respond, just report it and move on.

2. Rejected Suggestion

Just make a long enough post explaining kindly that it's rejected and linking the sticky

3. Someone who isn't using one of these Suggestions

Inform them of this sticky, and after being constructive and ‘warning’ them, add to discussion

Making Suggestions

Eighth Suggestion:
Thanks to The4thPixel

It gets very annoying to see extremely short suggestion posts with no clarification or detail whatsoever. Like in this one, the user was requesting to allow free-chat rooms.

Anonymous wrote:

Like, all the scratch team needs to do is ban swear words from variables and there you go.
I didn't snip anything, that was the entire post. I asked for multiple clarifications which the author of the original post has yet to provide. Simply asking for things like this is unconstructive and silly.

(Added by me)
Also, make sure that suggestion titles are relevant and give a good but short description about the suggestion. We recommend that you don't simply write “Add this please!” or “Suggestions” and so on. Say you're making a suggestion to add a new block. In the title we recommend you tell us the name of the block, and in the post a detailed description about what it would do, how it is used, why it is needed and what it would look like (using the Scratchblocks plugin ideally.)
Ninth Suggestion:
(Thanks to IcyCoder)

Don't Forget to Read the Stickies!

When making a suggestion, make sure to first of check the Suggestions Directory to make sure your suggestion hasn't been made before. Also check the list of Rejected Suggestions to check the idea hasn't been suggested before and sadly rejected. If you're suggesting a block, then make sure to read the List of Workarounds to see that there aren't any workarounds for your block.
Tenth Suggestion:
Thanks to MathlyCat

Users that presume ‘competition is unhealthy’, or just see it as ‘bad’.

Please understand that;

1. Competition is absolutely everywhere, I mean literally everywhere. Teaching kids about the real world is good, instilling fair and safe competition is very productive in the community. Why? Competition gives Scratcher's motivation; on the contrary of what many people think, they aren't being discouraged, unless of course you're the minority of people who are easily disheartened. This motivation makes it so Scratcher's persevere to make better of their projects, and the more this happens the more vibrant community gets.
2. Stop pampering the kids on the site. I understand certain things must be hidden, but it's unfair to hide the younger generation from the real world; they're already watching TV and the such I'm sure they've seen a lot. Scratch should be a place of growth in coding, and Scratch's side effects are great. You can make them better by adding more competition.
3. Not all competition is ‘good’. There are cases where there may be unneeded competition, like: how many scripts can I put in a project. Though, most of it is silly competition that young, creative minds are going to wander off to.

In conclusion, competition should only be the reason of no supporting in extreme cases. I, however, have not seen a single case where it should be the no supporting factor.
Twelfth Suggestion:
Thanks again to MathlyCat

When you're making a title, please make it look professional and not like you're trying to sell something to someone, or just putting your suggestion as a title. The title is key, but it also isn't the place to put your suggestion.

Delusional Title/Clickbait:

Please refrain from adding percentages or the amount of supporters to a title. Even if it does attract users it can be dishonest at times, and bias answers. Also, please don't use antagonizing phrases that place a person in a position of:

“Better support this or you're bad!!”

It can scare people into Supporting which isn't what you want!

Putting Your Post as a Title:

Please be sure to post your actual content in the larger box that isn't the title. It fills the page and looks unprofessional to just cram a ton of words as a title.

Keeping it Simple!:

My best tip is to make your title short and to the point. If your suggestion is about a like button, then make the title “Like Button”. As long as your title makes sense, isn't “Suggestion”, and follows these rules, you should be fine.


Both Making and Replying to Suggestions

Thirteenth Suggestion:
Thanks to Lythium

Do not text talk on forums! For an example, text talking would be:
I spprt ths sggstn becuz it is ausum and i liek it!!!!!!!!!
When making any post (not just in suggestions), take the time to ensure it has proper spelling and grammar. Text talking is confusing, unconstructive and frankly unprofessional. The easiest way to improve your posts is with good spelling/grammar

From Other Threads
A variety of related posts I found around the forum that ought to be included here.

birthoftheday wrote:

“Dear everyone who says Scratch isn't about popularity”

Congratulations on making one of the most cliche and overused arguments on this website. Every time I see someone say this as an excuse to dismiss a perfectly legitimate suggestion with one fell swoop I physically cringe inside at the level this community has devolved to regarding the social aspect of Scratch.

Why do I say it's so harmful? Why don't I just move on with my life? I say it, dear reader, because whenever someone uses it or anything like it, they contribute to the monster that is the hive mind of the Scratch suggestions forum. For the uninformed, this is the culture of slogans and tag lines such as ‘support’, ‘no support’, ‘as per this’ &c that turn any productive discussion into complete and utter moot.

“Discussion”, that is, if you can call it that, like this only teaches newcomers to these forums that this is the norm here and that it is to be followed. It teaches them to not think about suggestions they are reading and either dismiss them using a tag line or say what everyone else has been saying, while maybe adding an ‘as per this’ to give some illusion of originality. It teaches them to blend in with everyone else. It teaches them to not deviate from convention.

Is that what we, as a community, want to teach newcomers? I think not. I propose that, as a community, we collectively decide that these types of posts are not okay. We need some innovation in Scratch in general, and I think a good place to start is where people come to discuss it.

Original thread

Scratcher1002 wrote:

If you sometimes say, “No support, too confusing for New Scratchers” I have several arguments for you.

1. The greatest tool to learn, is to play.
2. You were also once a New Scratcher.
3. Some New Scratchers figure coding out faster than others. Or they may have come from C, or C++ or Java.
4. Be nice, you don't know the person behind the avatar.

So please remember, be nice, be respectful, and chill out, it's just a website.

TL;DR: Don't say it's too confusing for New Scratchers, you don't know the person behind the avatar, so be nice.

Original thread

Another important thing to note, thanks to jokebookservice1:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Can everybody act as if all suggestions were made on the Scratch GitHub repo: only post if you have something really important to add, and only make suggestions if they will make the whole of Scratch better.

Make sure you read this, it has lots of useful points!

So remember, when replying to a suggestion, always:
- Add to the discussion.
- Reply constructively.
- ask for clarification if you need it.
- Help others fix/improve suggestions.
- Be positive about suggestions!

If you think there is anything I've missed, then post it in the thread
Thank you for listening, and I hope you take on-board what I have said. Let's make suggestions a constructive and creative place!

List of contributors, thanks to them all:
- goldfish678
- Alexphan
- Tymewalk
- The4thPixel
- jokebookservice1
- IcyCoder
- Paddle2See
- Lythium
- birthoftheday
- Scratcher1002
- MathlyCat

Sigton

Last edited by Sigton (April 10, 2017 12:57:15)


Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

MegaByteCorporations
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

This is a very accurate suggestion. XD Support Hehe.

Trust, but verify ⅼ There is a madness to my method ⅼ Always outnumbered, never outclassed ⅼ They said I couldn't, so I did ⅼ I didn't lie, I circumnavigated the truth ⅼ Determination is the wake up call to the human will ⅼ I don't want to hurt you. And you know that I can ⅼ People can change - there is reason for hope ⅼ True friends stab you in the front ⅼ No I'm not ‘giving up’ I'm just too classy to fight an idiot like you
Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

MegaByteCorporations wrote:

This is a very accurate suggestion. XD Support Hehe.
I knew someone would do that

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

MegaByteCorporations
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Sigton wrote:

MegaByteCorporations wrote:

This is a very accurate suggestion. XD Support Hehe.
I knew someone would do that

Sigton
XD

Trust, but verify ⅼ There is a madness to my method ⅼ Always outnumbered, never outclassed ⅼ They said I couldn't, so I did ⅼ I didn't lie, I circumnavigated the truth ⅼ Determination is the wake up call to the human will ⅼ I don't want to hurt you. And you know that I can ⅼ People can change - there is reason for hope ⅼ True friends stab you in the front ⅼ No I'm not ‘giving up’ I'm just too classy to fight an idiot like you
Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

MegaByteCorporations wrote:

Sigton wrote:

MegaByteCorporations wrote:

This is a very accurate suggestion. XD Support Hehe.
I knew someone would do that

Sigton
XD
Anyway, back to the topic

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

MegaByteCorporations
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Sigton wrote:

Anyway, back to the topic

Sigton
Uh…

Trust, but verify ⅼ There is a madness to my method ⅼ Always outnumbered, never outclassed ⅼ They said I couldn't, so I did ⅼ I didn't lie, I circumnavigated the truth ⅼ Determination is the wake up call to the human will ⅼ I don't want to hurt you. And you know that I can ⅼ People can change - there is reason for hope ⅼ True friends stab you in the front ⅼ No I'm not ‘giving up’ I'm just too classy to fight an idiot like you
dude341
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

1st suggestion: No support, what if people want say that they like/don't like the suggestion? I also like it when people say Support or No support because then I know if my suggestion is good or bad.
2nd suggestion: Support. Sometimes, people say “No support” for no reason.
3rd suggestion: Support for the same reason as the second suggestion.

“Person: Why did the chicken cross the road? Me: Why? Person: To get to the other side! (weird laugh) Me: That's not funny… ”
…10 translations later, Yandex gives us:
“Man: why did the chicken cross the road? I: why? People walk across the bridge! (Joke): no fun…


Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

dude341 wrote:

1st suggestion: No support, what if people want say that they like/don't like the suggestion? I also like it when people say Support or No support because then I know if my suggestion is good or bad.
Then they say “I like this suggestion”! This whole support convention ahs done nothing to help the suggestions forum, in fact it has done exactly the opposite. It ahs turned this forum into a competition rather than an improvement scheme.

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

goldfish678
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

These are some really good tips! Maybe you could add something like this:

4thSuggestion wrote:

If you're looking at a block suggestion, please don't post something like this:

Anonymous wrote:

This is unnecessary. No support.
Have you ever gotten something like that before? Either way, I can't tell you how many times I've gotten that as a stubborn response from people and how many times I've had to explain that the reason that all of the blocks in Scratch are even there is not because they're “necessary”, they're there because they could open up possibilities and expand the creativity of users' projects. Note the word creativity.
Unfortunately, these people never get back to me, even if it's not my suggestion, which can really get on my nerves sometimes.
And I know this whole thing was written in second person, but moral of the story: please, think before you post and save us all time trying to give everybody constant explanations logically disproving things that weren't really thought through very well.

Sorry if I sounded too harsh xD

“I should probably get a less obnoxious signature” -Goldfish, 2018
LP_Play
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

These are already in effect. Just not everyone follows those rules…

Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

goldfish678 wrote:

These are some really good tips! Maybe you could add something like this:

4thSuggestion wrote:

-Snip-

Sorry if I sounded too harsh xD
Thank you

I'll add your contribution

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

goldfish678
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Sigton wrote:

goldfish678 wrote:

These are some really good tips! Maybe you could add something like this:

4thSuggestion wrote:

-Snip-

Sorry if I sounded too harsh xD
Thank you

I'll add your contribution

Sigton
Yay!

“I should probably get a less obnoxious signature” -Goldfish, 2018
Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

LP_Play wrote:

These are already in effect. Just not everyone follows those rules…
1. They're not rules.
2. They're not enforced in any way.

I'm trying to spread the logic behind these suggestions, to help every other suggestion on Scratch.

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

Techno-CAT
Scratcher
500+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Great post Sigton!

Last edited by Techno-CAT (Sept. 8, 2016 12:26:07)

Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Techno-CAT wrote:

Great post Sigton!


Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

MegaByteCorporations
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

^^

Trust, but verify ⅼ There is a madness to my method ⅼ Always outnumbered, never outclassed ⅼ They said I couldn't, so I did ⅼ I didn't lie, I circumnavigated the truth ⅼ Determination is the wake up call to the human will ⅼ I don't want to hurt you. And you know that I can ⅼ People can change - there is reason for hope ⅼ True friends stab you in the front ⅼ No I'm not ‘giving up’ I'm just too classy to fight an idiot like you
Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

MegaByteCorporations wrote:

^^
;P

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

Scratcher1002
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

1. I still don't see how support or no support is bad.
2. I agree, you shouldn't jump to conclusions on Scratch, or anywhere honestly.
3. If I No Support a suggestion it's for one of several reasons:
• I can't think of many applications for the suggestion.
• It's been rejected.
4. If I say it's unnecessary, it might be because it doesn't have many uses, or the uses don't make much sense, or it has a workaround.
All in all, good post, but I disagree with it. OH NO WHAT DO WE DO? MAYBE JUST MOVE ON WITH OUR LIVES?!
Sigton
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Scratcher1002 wrote:

1. I still don't see how support or no support is bad.
It takes people away from the point of the suggestions forum and turns it into a competition.

Sigton

Rubiks Cube Personal Best: 10.4 seconds | 13,700+ posts

powercon5
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Constructive Recommendations On How to Respond to and Make Suggestions!

Support…
These are some very good ideas!
However I think it's fine to say support/no support but it should just be a way to convey your opinion it should not have the meaning and value it seems to have now, as you should also state what you like, what you don't and what could be improved.

Last edited by powercon5 (Aug. 28, 2016 13:24:22)



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