Discuss Scratch

Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Hello, fellow Scratchers. I am here today to urge you to take action to improve the community. I've been using Scratch for over two years, and I'm growing increasingly disappointed in the nature of the community. Scratch is supposed to be a programming site, but it is used for a plethora of other purposes as well, damaging its reputation. The sooner we take action, the better the community will become.

Scratch is a website aimed at children ages 8-16 for learning how to program using the “Scratch” programming language. Scratch is developed by the Lifelong Kindergarten Group as a way to introduce programming to those unfamiliar with it. Because Scratch is block-based, users cannot make syntax errors, frustrating, discouraging, and frustrating and common pitfalls. Scratch also introduces basic programming concepts, such as, control structures, variables and other data structures, Boolean expressions, and procedures. Scratch is used by millions of people worldwide, including educators, to learn or teach programming.

However, many members of the Scratch community are misusing Scratch. Many Scratchers use the site to post their art, and one referred to Scratch as an “art community.” The “Top Remixed” section is filled with coloring contests. The majority of art projects tend to involve Warriors, a popular novel series written by a group of authors under then pseudonym “Erin Hunter.” Scratchers even create accounts with usernames based on characters from the series! Many users view Scratch as a “DeviantArt Jr.” In addition, many people view Scratch as YouTube. These users refer to accounts as “channels,” followers as “subscribers,” and projects as “vids.” Scratch is constantly being used as an alternative to popular sites, rather than its intended purpose.

Another major result of the current Scratch community is drama. When a famous Scratcher is banned for breaking the Community Guidelines, Scratchers often protest the ban in an attempt to make the Scratch Team unban him or her, causing more moderation work for the Scratch Team. Popularity is dangerous, as power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratchers can become meaner when popular, and their messages can reach a wider audience. Popular Scratchers have greatly influenced conflicts such as the recoloring controversy, as they command the hearts of thousands of followers and fans.

An issue that is related to both popular Scratchers and the use of Scratch by artists, the recoloring controversy has caused many feelings to be hurt. Anti-recolors often harass people who exercise their right to remix, attacking them in groups. I witnessed one Scratcher, who was obviously affected by said harassment delete her remix and apologize to her tormentors, but she did nothing wrong. Under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license, others are free to remix shared Scratch projects. Remixing is a great way to learn programming, and artists shouldn't be using Scratch at all. Being open source is one important value in the software world.

Because many Scratchers use Scratch for reasons other than programming, they may cause drama.

An ideal Scratch community is one where its users are passionate about programming and fascinated by computer science topics, and experienced users help eager learners. People Scratch because they want to learn, and are motivated by the desire of knowledge, rather than love-its and followers. Because most users share the same interests, disagreements rarely occur, and when they do, they usually end without any hard feelings. Scratch would become a popular site to learn to code, well-renowned for its welcoming community and educational value.

In addition, I would like the Scratch Team to gradually move the focus of the site from all projects to mainly programming ones.

I would like to propose the following rule:
Scratch is a programming site. The Scratch Team may ban any account that is predominantly using Scratch for any purpose other than as a programming site. Other purposes include, but are not limited to, an art-sharing site, social network or gaming site. The Scratch Team reserves the right to suspend or terminate any account determined to be misusing the website, at its own discretion.
The above excerpt is not intended to be legal prose, and its author does not claim any responsibility for any damages occurring as a result from it, directly or indirectly.

This rule would effectively ban any Scratcher who uses Scratch as an art or social media website. I understand that a major fraction of Scratch's userbase is composed of artists, but enacting such a move would shift the focus of the community to programming. The horrible current quality of the Scratch userbase was shown firsthand when the Scratch Team announced their decision about Five Nights at Freddy's projects, and fans angrily protested it. I anticipate major backlash for such a rule, but it is a definite possibility to create a community that is better in the long run. However, it is not likely to be added, so I have other, more moderate suggestions which will constructively lead to a community revolving around programming.

Currently, the Scratch Team features a wide variety of projects, and are looking for unique ones. However, in the process of featuring projects from different genres, they have featured a fair share of art-related projects. The amount of programming-dedicated featured projects is lacking. Several other users share this viewpoint.

In addition, the Scratch Team could start more initiatives and programs focused on teaching programming. Organizations such as the Welcoming Committee curators, SDS curators, and now-defunct Scratch helpers have demonstrated the successes of the Scratch Team's past groups. In a single day, the comments on the Welcoming Committee fill a whole page. Any program that the Scratch Team starts would greatly influence the community's attitude. Starting a group to promote programming interest and foster learning would make a huge impact on the community.

I encourage the Scratch Team to explore ways to transform the Scratch community into one that values programming. The majority of users have forgotten Scratch's true purpose: to teach programming to passionate children. By placing an emphasis on programming, other projects, such as art, will gradually decrease, and the community will one that is filled with budding programmers. Then, the Scratch Team may truly focus on teaching the next generation the new literacy of the twenty-first century.

Scratch is not a art site, a gaming site, a social network or a video site. It is a programming site. Currently, Scratch is under the shadow of more popular sites, such as DeviantArt with its 35 million members and YouTube with its billion users, because it is trying to be what it is not. Scratch will never be a mainstream art or video site, but it was never meant to be. Scratch is one of the largest programming sites I have ever seen. Only by reforming the community to reflect Scratch's mission can we truly become successful. Vote Gobo Trump for Scratch Team, and we can Make Scratch Gr8 Again. Build a firewall and make artists pay for it! jk

Last edited by Chibi-Matoran (Jan. 20, 2016 02:30:27)


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Blaze349
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

No support.

With Scratch, you can program your own interactive stories, games, and animations — and share your creations with others in the online community.

Scratch helps young people learn to think creatively, reason systematically, and work collaboratively — essential skills for life in the 21st century.

Scratch is a project of the Lifelong Kindergarten Group at the MIT Media Lab. It is provided free of charge.

Imagine, Program, Share

Scratch's focus is not on programming but on logical, creative thinking to solve problems using a set of tools and sharing it with the wider community. Scratch is not for people who want to learn programming but for those who want to learn why they are programming what they are programming.
DaSpudLord
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

tl;dr

But from skimming it, it appears you want to punish people who don't use Scratch for programming.

No support as per Blaze349- as much as I agree that Scratch is made for programming, there is so much more that the ST intended Scratch to be other than programming. Scratch isn't just programming- it's a site for art. It's a site for all forms of art, whether that's drawing, making awesome programs, sharing their music collection, animations, etc. Scratch allows users to do whatever they want. It's not just being able to program that sets Scratch apart, it's freedom of expression- being able to create whatever you want out of it using the pieces given to you.


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Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Blaze349 wrote:

No support.

With Scratch, you can program your own interactive stories, games, and animations — and share your creations with others in the online community.

Scratch helps young people learn to think creatively, reason systematically, and work collaboratively — essential skills for life in the 21st century.

Scratch is a project of the Lifelong Kindergarten Group at the MIT Media Lab. It is provided free of charge.

Imagine, Program, Share

Scratch's focus is not on programming but on logical, creative thinking to solve problems using a set of tools and sharing it with the wider community. Scratch is not for people who want to learn programming but for those who want to learn why they are programming what they are programming.
From the same page as the one where your first quote was found, I found this:
The ability to code computer programs is an important part of literacy in today’s society. When people learn to code in Scratch, they learn important strategies for solving problems, designing projects, and communicating ideas.
Students are learning with Scratch at all levels (from elementary school to college) and across disciplines (such as math, computer science, language arts, social studies). Educators share stories, exchange resources, ask questions, and find people on the ScratchEd website.
Many Scratchers do things such as share their art, complain about recoloring, and protest against the Scratch Team. I don't believe that these are behaviors described in Scratch's “About section.”

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Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

DaSpudLord wrote:

tl;dr

But from skimming it, it appears you want to punish people who don't use Scratch for programming.

No support as per Blaze349- as much as I agree that Scratch is made for programming, there is so much more that the ST intended Scratch to be other than programming. Scratch isn't just programming- it's a site for art. It's a site for all forms of art, whether that's drawing, making awesome programs, sharing their music collection, animations, etc. Scratch allows users to do whatever they want. It's not just being able to program that sets Scratch apart, it's freedom of expression- being able to create whatever you want out of it using the pieces given to you.
Sorry, I don't agree. Though Scratch has evolved to be a site where many different types of projects are shared, it was created to be a site to teach programming using the Scratch programming language.

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DaSpudLord
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

DaSpudLord wrote:

tl;dr

But from skimming it, it appears you want to punish people who don't use Scratch for programming.

No support as per Blaze349- as much as I agree that Scratch is made for programming, there is so much more that the ST intended Scratch to be other than programming. Scratch isn't just programming- it's a site for art. It's a site for all forms of art, whether that's drawing, making awesome programs, sharing their music collection, animations, etc. Scratch allows users to do whatever they want. It's not just being able to program that sets Scratch apart, it's freedom of expression- being able to create whatever you want out of it using the pieces given to you.
Sorry, I don't agree. Though Scratch has evolved to be a site where many different types of projects are shared, it was created to be a site to teach programming using the Scratch programming language.
So? Why can't Scratch be more that what it was intended to be? Isn't that a good thing? To be better than what you wanted to be? And besides, how is all of the art, animations, etc hurting the actual programmers?


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Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

DaSpudLord wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

DaSpudLord wrote:

tl;dr

But from skimming it, it appears you want to punish people who don't use Scratch for programming.

No support as per Blaze349- as much as I agree that Scratch is made for programming, there is so much more that the ST intended Scratch to be other than programming. Scratch isn't just programming- it's a site for art. It's a site for all forms of art, whether that's drawing, making awesome programs, sharing their music collection, animations, etc. Scratch allows users to do whatever they want. It's not just being able to program that sets Scratch apart, it's freedom of expression- being able to create whatever you want out of it using the pieces given to you.
Sorry, I don't agree. Though Scratch has evolved to be a site where many different types of projects are shared, it was created to be a site to teach programming using the Scratch programming language.
So? Why can't Scratch be more that what it was intended to be? Isn't that a good thing? To be better than what you wanted to be? And besides, how is all of the art, animations, etc hurting the actual programmers?
Being more than it is intended to be can be a bad thing. In addition to being a programming site, Scratch is also a place to chat, use as social media, or share art. When so many people have different interests, disagreements occur. In addition, many Scratchers misbehave and cause drama. I dare to say that serious people who want to learn programming have become a minority now.

Last edited by Chibi-Matoran (Jan. 20, 2016 02:54:55)


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NoxSpooth
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

So basically you want to ban every single user who dares to make art projects?

I'm sorry, but I personally do not support ANY of that. Art projects should not be considered a “bannable offense”.
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

NoxSpooth wrote:

So basically you want to ban every single user who dares to make art projects?

I'm sorry, but I personally do not support ANY of that. Art projects should not be considered a “bannable offense”.
Users would be able to make art projects, but they should generally be using Scratch as a programming site. If they start causing drama (“OMG u recolored!11!!”), they should definitely be banned, since they're causing trouble and aren't even using Scratch for its intended purpose.

I know that the banning idea is very radical and will probably be unpopular. What do you think about shifting the community's focus towards programming?

Last edited by Chibi-Matoran (Jan. 20, 2016 03:05:50)


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Rachyl
Scratcher
500+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

NoxSpooth wrote:

So basically you want to ban every single user who dares to make art projects?

I'm sorry, but I personally do not support ANY of that. Art projects should not be considered a “bannable offense”.
Users would be able to make art projects, but they should generally be using Scratch as a programming site. If they start causing drama (“OMG u recolored!11!!”), they should definitely be banned, since they're causing trouble and aren't even using Scratch for its intended purpose.

I know that the banning idea is very radical and will probably be unpopular. What do you think about shifting the community's focus towards programming?
??? You want artists to get banned just for not supporting recolors?

✨ kkthxbye ✨
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Rachyl wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

NoxSpooth wrote:

So basically you want to ban every single user who dares to make art projects?

I'm sorry, but I personally do not support ANY of that. Art projects should not be considered a “bannable offense”.
Users would be able to make art projects, but they should generally be using Scratch as a programming site. If they start causing drama (“OMG u recolored!11!!”), they should definitely be banned, since they're causing trouble and aren't even using Scratch for its intended purpose.

I know that the banning idea is very radical and will probably be unpopular. What do you think about shifting the community's focus towards programming?
??? You want artists to get banned just for not supporting recolors?
If they just express their dislike of recoloring, then they wouldn't be banned (though the Scratch Team does alert people for doing so), but if they actively bother remixers and cause generally trouble and flame wars, then the Scratch Team would have grounds to ban them. These people are not even using Scratch for its intended purpose, so what right do they have when they start to cause drama and oppose Scratch's ideals? So, basically, just posting art is fine, but if the Scratcher causes a lot of drama, then they should be banned.

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Rachyl
Scratcher
500+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

That's already endorsed by the Community Guidelines though. Harassing other users is not allowed.

Though i personally think it's also harassment when someone recolors a project with the acknowledge that the author doesn't really like that. Except this case theres nothing Scratch can do about it? It's house rules so i choose not to complain.

Last edited by Rachyl (Jan. 20, 2016 03:23:20)


✨ kkthxbye ✨
-Io-
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Oh no! I'm banned! I'm banned again! And again! And again! And again!

Oh no! PullJosh is banned for his awesome pen art projects!
Oh no! Almost everyone i'm following is banned for their beautiful design and art!
Oh no! User made logos are banned!
Oh no! You're banned! (Basically no programming!) And again!
Oh no! Discuss (minus Help with Scripts, Advanced Topics, and language forums) is banned!
Oh no! Explore is banned!
Oh no! All commenters in games are banned!
Oh no! About me is banned!
etc.

What are we gonna do?! The fun in Scratch is no longer here! There will be a rant/collab like “Make another Scratch website” in Advanced Topics!

Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

-Io- wrote:

Oh no! I'm banned! I'm banned again! And again! And again! And again!

Oh no! PullJosh is banned for his awesome pen art projects!
Oh no! Almost everyone i'm following is banned for their beautiful design and art!
Oh no! User made logos are banned!
Oh no! You're banned! (Basically no programming!) And again!
Oh no! Discuss (minus Help with Scripts, Advanced Topics, and language forums) is banned!
Oh no! Explore is banned!
Oh no! All commenters in games are banned!
Oh no! About me is banned!
etc.

What are we gonna do?! The fun in Scratch is no longer here! There will be a rant/collab like “Make another Scratch website” in Advanced Topics!
No I don't wanna to be banned!!!11!! I cri evritime.

Scratchers would be allowed to do non-programming things in Scratch, but they should be mainly using Scratch to program. I'm talking about the groups of users who use Scratch as an art site, and never post anything with significant programming involved. I am definitely not suggestion a ban on art and other things that are not “programming.”

Also, I consider PullJosh's pen animations to be programming, and they do require decent programming and mathematical knowledge.

If you see this signature while scrolling, you have been visited by ʎ++ haskal. Lazy evaluation, monads, function purity, lambdas, currying, partial application, algebraic data types, pattern matching, and typeclasses will come to you, but only if you comment, “Thanks, ʎ++ haskal” on my profile.

Cassian && ||
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Rachyl wrote:

Though i personally think it's also harassment when someone recolors a project with the acknowledge that the author doesn't really like that. Except this case theres nothing Scratch can do about it? It's house rules so i choose not to complain.
I used to be like that, but the argument about “creator's wishes” applies to the Scratch Team as well. By hating on recolors, Scratchers are not respecting the Scratch Team's wishes. They are people, too, and they want remixes to be encouraged on this site.

If you see this signature while scrolling, you have been visited by ʎ++ haskal. Lazy evaluation, monads, function purity, lambdas, currying, partial application, algebraic data types, pattern matching, and typeclasses will come to you, but only if you comment, “Thanks, ʎ++ haskal” on my profile.

Cassian && ||
Rachyl
Scratcher
500+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

Rachyl wrote:

Though i personally think it's also harassment when someone recolors a project with the acknowledge that the author doesn't really like that. Except this case theres nothing Scratch can do about it? It's house rules so i choose not to complain.
I used to be like that, but the argument about “creator's wishes” applies to the Scratch Team as well. By hating on recolors, Scratchers are not respecting the Scratch Team's wishes. They are people, too, and they want remixes to be encouraged on this site.
I disagree but whatever

✨ kkthxbye ✨
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Rachyl wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

Rachyl wrote:

Though i personally think it's also harassment when someone recolors a project with the acknowledge that the author doesn't really like that. Except this case theres nothing Scratch can do about it? It's house rules so i choose not to complain.
I used to be like that, but the argument about “creator's wishes” applies to the Scratch Team as well. By hating on recolors, Scratchers are not respecting the Scratch Team's wishes. They are people, too, and they want remixes to be encouraged on this site.
I disagree but whatever
Out of respect, I don't recolor projects which their creators don't want to be recolored.

If you see this signature while scrolling, you have been visited by ʎ++ haskal. Lazy evaluation, monads, function purity, lambdas, currying, partial application, algebraic data types, pattern matching, and typeclasses will come to you, but only if you comment, “Thanks, ʎ++ haskal” on my profile.

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Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Hmm, instead of banning users based on the presence of art, maybe the Scratch Team should ban them based on the absence of programming…

Anyway, what do you all think of my more moderate ideas? I think that the Scratch Team should definitely lead the community to be more focused on learning to program.

If you see this signature while scrolling, you have been visited by ʎ++ haskal. Lazy evaluation, monads, function purity, lambdas, currying, partial application, algebraic data types, pattern matching, and typeclasses will come to you, but only if you comment, “Thanks, ʎ++ haskal” on my profile.

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powershack
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

Oh! I am now banned from scratch because 75% of my projects are art!
How wonderful!

Yeah, scratch is made for programming, and there's a high demand for programmers, but I don't think scratch should just totally make scratch be “PROGRAM PROGRAM PROGRAM REMOVE GOOD ART PUT HORRIBLE ART” I support to help promote programming (for example, feature more programming skills and programmed games other than art and dig stuff, not saying those should not be featured but there have been a lot of them recently)
Chibi-Matoran
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Putting the "Programming" Back in "Scratch"

powershack wrote:

Oh! I am now banned from scratch because 75% of my projects are art!
How wonderful!

Yeah, scratch is made for programming, and there's a high demand for programmers, but I don't think scratch should just totally make scratch be “PROGRAM PROGRAM PROGRAM REMOVE GOOD ART PUT HORRIBLE ART” I support to help promote programming (for example, feature more programming skills and programmed games other than art and dig stuff, not saying those should not be featured but there have been a lot of them recently)
I agree. The section about banning artists was really radical, and I only want it to be used in extreme cases where the user is causing trouble, not to ban every single person who posts art.

If you see this signature while scrolling, you have been visited by ʎ++ haskal. Lazy evaluation, monads, function purity, lambdas, currying, partial application, algebraic data types, pattern matching, and typeclasses will come to you, but only if you comment, “Thanks, ʎ++ haskal” on my profile.

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