Discuss Scratch

ProdigyZeta7
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

NOTE: If you are going to quote this post, please PLEASE PLEASE just narrow it down to the specific information you are addressing.
NOTE 2: Solution 3 I found was worded weirdly, so it has been changed.

Introduction
One of the longest, unsolved problems of any social media website is the race for fame. The thrill of being publicized, regardless of effort, has driven many users, in this case, Scratchers, to acquire fame by any means. This includes:
  • Gaining Followers
  • Following hundreds of others
  • Gaining Love-its
  • Gaining Favorites
  • Gaining Views
  • Achieving 1000+ forum posts
  • Owning a highly-active topic
  • Getting front-paged via Love-its
  • Getting curated by a curator
  • Becoming curator
  • Getting featured by the Scratch Team
  • Acquiring a high number of projects in a studio
  • Having a plethora of curators/followers in a studio
However, fame is not always a good thing concerning the methods to achieve it. Take for example, AE studios: fame is gained as easily as love-its, all because they brag of having tens of thousands of projects in a studio, of which they don't really care about. But besides that, there's another common problem circulating around Scratch: Follow4Follow, I call it. This topic will emphasize the problems associated with Follow4Follow, as well as present solutions to reducing the motive to gain followers purely for fame. So bear with me.

What is Follow4Follow?
An easier way to put it would be requesting for followers without a good reason, then return the favor with a follow. I would simply ask you to follow me without using my manners, and you would do so as if under control. Another way is saying “I'll follow you if you follow me”, and that would pretty much explain the exchange by itself.

In a more detailed analysis, Follow4Follow is the practice of persuading or bribing young, sometimes gullible users into following an unpopular user in return for a small reward, usually a follow or love-it on a project. There are no initial reasons behind this exchange except for both gaining a small amount of fame.

Pros and Cons of Follow4Follow
Realize that I do not plan to make this topic biased. I am open to include any benefits as well as downsides to the practice of Follow4Follow. If you have your opinion on this, please be respectful and we shall do the same.

Pros
  • Helps new Scratchers in gaining a foothold for achieving the fame he/she deserves
  • Reduces unpopularity
  • Promotes generosity (ambiguous if concerning that users take advantage of generosity to gain followers)
  • Allows users to keep in touch with one another
  • Motivates a Scratcher to impress his/her followers by creating quality projects
Cons
  • Causes unwanted competition
  • Unnecessary if an account is made for the sole purpose of following
  • Does not entail fame if the user's only desire is to acquire followers
  • Distracts the user from the purpose of Scratch: learning to program
  • Encourages new Scratchers to spam on others' profiles/projects asking for followers
  • Some may lie to gain followers, often saying they'll follow too

How do we get rid of unwanted fame?
Fame isn't a bad thing by itself, but it becomes bad if abused/misused. That's why I want to discuss some ways we can reduce or discourage the want for fame without eliminating the good side of it. I understand it won't be easy, but allow me to present my ideas, some moderate, some radical:
Solution 1: Elimination of Following
This is the most radical solution, but if Scratchers don't get to follow anyone, there won't be any reason to get famous this way. In fact, since when is someone famous for the number of followers they have? I understand lots of you will hate this idea because you don't get to keep in touch with your friends, but I'm sure you can find ways around this. This will stop the creation of accounts that are made for following “everyone” (obviously, that's impossible), as well as render the current ones useless.
Supporters:
Solution 2: Allow the Reporting of Comments that Request for Followers
I think some of us have had enough of users begging for followers on others' profiles, so we should be allowed to report this type of spam. Say a user has spammed “follow me” on 5 profiles, all are reported, so the user gets a one-day mute from Scratch, disabling them from commenting. Then he/she receives an alert that says “Please do not let fame distract you from programming” or something like that. Continuous spamming may result in longer mutes and/or temporary bans.
Supporters: firedrake969, Zaneki, mitchboy, joshuaho, Centrifugal, darkness3560, A-no-meep, cobraguy, billybobscratch, davidkt, BigBlueBlock, Poosheku, PhirripSyrrip, 1234abcdcba4321, AonymousGuy, GyroscopeBill, Deerleg, VoltageGames, savaka
Solution 3: Cap the Number of Users you can Follow *Updated*
I believe there should be a limit as to how many people the user can follow. It must be set high enough to allow for people to follow everyone they want to follow, but also low enough to discourage over-following. I'd say a good starting limit would be 250 users any one person can follow, but the limit can be changed with the consent everyone. THIS DOES NOT LIMIT THE NUMBER OF FOLLOWERS SOME ONE CAN HAVE.
Supporters:
Solution 4: Limit the Number of Users You can Follow Each Day
Similar to solution 3, but this affects how many users someone can follow in 24 hours. I'd say that the limit should be 10 people to follow a day (this is subject to change if you have a better limit). After they've followed the limit, they must wait 24 hours before following more. There are very little repercussions with this method, so I'd say it's the best solution we have.
Supporters: firedrake969, Zaneki, Mokat, turkey3, joshuaho, Centrifugal, darkness3560, A-no-meep, cobraguy, davidkt, BigBlueBlock, 1234abcdcba4321, AonymousGuy, GyroscopeBill, Deerleg, VoltageGames, savaka
Solution 5: Adding a “Popularity” Rule to the Community Guidelines
Courtesy of stevetheipad, this suggests that a change, either a totally new point or a small rewriting of words, be made to the CG's. By referring to the etiquette of Scratch for the regulation of fame, Scratchers will be less interested in turning Scratch into a social network and more interested in expanding the popularity of Scratch around the world.
Supporters: stevetheipad, BigBlueBlock, Poosheku, mitchboy, PhirripSyrrip, AonymousGuy, Firedrake969(?), savaka
Please specify which solutions you support so I can tally the correct ones. Otherwise I may assume you support all of them. If you have a good solution to share, please do so and I may add it to the list of solutions here. Thank you for reading this through and I hope you consider how to address this problem.

Last edited by ProdigyZeta7 (April 2, 2014 23:26:23)




firedrake969_test
Scratcher
500+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Another con is that some people lie. I've seen it.

I agree with 2 and 4. 2 is like asking for loves/faves, and 4 makes sense to me.

Please don't start the next [it which must not be named for sake of peace] war.

Your dog had too much coffee…..

Another fame thing is being curator (not as much, because the ST selects pretty responsible Scratchers, (not to brag, but they say that ))

Last edited by firedrake969_test (Oct. 6, 2013 23:47:06)


Alt account of Firedrake969.

Rocket II: A black and white bitmap space game!

I seek not fame, but education.

;
BobStanley
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

For Solutions #1 & 3, people also follow people to see their project shares and/or interests.

dracae made this picture V | Like a Glover | Tau is awesome | dracae also made that GIF >, Flash 11.8 (release 800)
ProdigyZeta7
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

firedrake969_test wrote:

Another con is that some people lie. I've seen it.
:O Good point! Updated.
Please don't start the next [it which must not be named for sake of peace] war.
It takes two to start a war, so unless someone protests then war won't happen.
Your dog had too much coffee…..
[wow intensifies]
Another fame thing is being curator (not as much, because the ST selects pretty responsible Scratchers, (not to brag, but they say that ))
Ah, I see. Updated.



Zaneki
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Support 2 and 4… 1 and 3 are a bit too radical for my tastes. Definitely agree with Firedrake, though.

look a square
;
mitchboy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Support #2. I don't like #1 because following can be used for a lot of different useful ways, such as finding projects, seeing what your friends are doing, etc.

Last edited by mitchboy (Oct. 7, 2013 01:37:11)


Capsicum annuum.
Mokat
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I support the 4th one.

turkey3_test
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I like 4… But the way to really eliminate the fame drive is:
-no home page
-no views
-no loves
-no faves
-no comments
-no studios
-no followers
So as long as there are at least one of those there will always be fame. But, how successful do these follow4follow people become “famewise” due to the follow4follows?

Anyways, I don't hunk they should be reported, but agree that there should be about a maximum of following 5 people per day.

Firedrake969
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

turkey3_test wrote:

I like 4… But the way to really eliminate the fame drive is:
-no home page
-no views
-no loves
-no faves
-no comments
-no studios
-no followers
So as long as there are at least one of those there will always be fame. But, how successful do these follow4follow people become “famewise” due to the follow4follows?

Anyways, I don't hunk they should be reported, but agree that there should be about a maximum of following 5 people per day.
You don't hunk? xD

The max would be nice, perhaps 5-10.

'17 rickoid

bf97b44a7fbd33db070f6ade2b7dc549
turkey3_test
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Firedrake969 wrote:

turkey3_test wrote:

I like 4… But the way to really eliminate the fame drive is:
-no home page
-no views
-no loves
-no faves
-no comments
-no studios
-no followers
So as long as there are at least one of those there will always be fame. But, how successful do these follow4follow people become “famewise” due to the follow4follows?

Anyways, I don't hunk they should be reported, but agree that there should be about a maximum of following 5 people per day.
You don't hunk? xD

The max would be nice, perhaps 5-10.
This is why I'm going to disable iPad auto-correct

EH7meow
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

How about making it so that there aren't rows on userpages about who's following who (like how you can't see who is following a studio on the studio page). Maybe leave a number, but no more. Also, how about making it so the person being followed can only see a number, and doesn't get messages. Although users should be able to see a personal list of who they're following.

The advantage of this would be that it removes the ability to find out if they followed you, making follow4follow rely on trusting the person to follow you back. The only disadvantage would be that you couldn't “recommend” a user, however, I don't think this really happens anyway and if you really want to publicise certain users, or say what sort of users you follow, can't that be in your “about me”?

Another advantage would be that users can't boast that “Incredible-Amazing-User” or “Cool-project-maker” is following them.

Ex-Scratch Mentor | Ex-Front Page Curator | Scratch Welcoming Committee Curator | Wiki Editor
joshuaho
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Thinking….

Here is what I think.

Solution 1: Elimination of Following
This is the most radical solution, but if Scratchers don't get to follow anyone, there won't be any reason to get famous this way. In fact, since when is someone famous for the number of followers they have? I understand lots of you will hate this idea because you don't get to keep in touch with your friends, but I'm sure you can find ways around this. This will stop the creation of accounts that are made for following “everyone” (obviously, that's impossible), as well as render the current ones useless.
Sorry, but no support. Followers are just like friends, I am pretty sure that no one would like it if they always had to go to their profile page to see if there are new projects by their followers. It would be better if it was displayed on the front page like it is now.

Solution 2: Allow the Reporting of Comments that Request for Followers
I think some of us have had enough of users begging for followers on others' profiles, so we should be allowed to report this type of spam. Say a user has spammed “follow me” on 5 profiles, all are reported, so the user gets a one-day mute from Scratch, disabling them from commenting. Then he/she receives an alert that says “Please do not let fame distract you from programming” or something like that. Continuous spamming may result in longer mutes and/or temporary bans.
Great idea!! I support! However, it would not be fair if the scratcher is new. How about having the alert sent first and then a mute if the scratcher continues his follow4follow spam even after the alert is sent?

Solution 3: Cap the Number of Followers
Similar to other suggestions for limiting curators/projects in studios, I believe there should be a limit as to how many followers or people the user is following. I don't know how this would work exactly, but let's say that there can only be 500 followers/following per user. Then the race to get 1000+ followers is cut short and competition diminishes (but not completely, though). If a user has over 500 of either when this is implemented, then he/she cannot gain any more followers or follow any more.
Uh… I am not sure about this. If this was implemented, than the user could simply use another account to follow more people. So, I can't say that I support, but I also can't say that I don't support. I am just not sure. So, don't put me on the supporters list for solution 3.

Solution 4: Limit the Number of Users You can Follow Each Day
Similar to solution 3, but this affects how many users someone can follow in 24 hours. I'd say that the limit should be 10 people to follow a day (this is subject to change if you have a better limit). After they've followed the limit, they must wait 24 hours before following more. There are very little repercussions with this method, so I'd say it's the best solution we have.
Yes!! I support this!

So these are my thoughts.

College student studying Communication and Fire Technology, communication lab tutor, guitar and piano player, perfectionist, and just some guy who regularly eats and trains physically to stay healthy.
Centrifugal
Scratcher
500+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

Solution 1: Elimination of Following
This is the most radical solution, but if Scratchers don't get to follow anyone, there won't be any reason to get famous this way. In fact, since when is someone famous for the number of followers they have? I understand lots of you will hate this idea because you don't get to keep in touch with your friends, but I'm sure you can find ways around this. This will stop the creation of accounts that are made for following “everyone” (obviously, that's impossible), as well as render the current ones useless.
NO some users create good projects and you want to be notified when they come out- some plain deserve a follow
Supporters:
Solution 2: Allow the Reporting of Comments that Request for Followers
I think some of us have had enough of users begging for followers on others' profiles, so we should be allowed to report this type of spam. Say a user has spammed “follow me” on 5 profiles, all are reported, so the user gets a one-day mute from Scratch, disabling them from commenting. Then he/she receives an alert that says “Please do not let fame distract you from programming” or something like that. Continuous spamming may result in longer mutes and/or temporary bans.
Yes, this is just plain spam and shouldn't be allowed
Supporters: firedrake969_test, Zaneki, mitchboy
Solution 3: Cap the Number of Followers
Similar to other suggestions for limiting curators/projects in studios, I believe there should be a limit as to how many followers or people the user is following. I don't know how this would work exactly, but let's say that there can only be 500 followers/following per user. Then the race to get 1000+ followers is cut short and competition diminishes (but not completely, though). If a user has over 500 of either when this is implemented, then he/she cannot gain any more followers or follow any more.
No, some people make great work and deserve a lot of followers- what if you couldn't follow someone you wanted to keep track of.
Supporters:
Solution 4: Limit the Number of Users You can Follow Each Day
Similar to solution 3, but this affects how many users someone can follow in 24 hours. I'd say that the limit should be 10 people to follow a day (this is subject to change if you have a better limit). After they've followed the limit, they must wait 24 hours before following more. There are very little repercussions with this method, so I'd say it's the best solution we have.
Yes, no spammy mass follows
Supporters: firedrake969_test, Zaneki, Mokat, turkey3_test

Last edited by Centrifugal (Oct. 8, 2013 20:56:12)


Settlers of Inland - Age of Ƭɍeasoƞ

firedrake969_test
Scratcher
500+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I'm Firedrake969

Alt account of Firedrake969.

Rocket II: A black and white bitmap space game!

I seek not fame, but education.

;
henrybros
Scratcher
24 posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

BobStanley wrote:

For Solutions #1 & 3, people also follow people to see their project shares and/or interests.
Yes. It is like subscribing in youtube. You can see it in one of my projects.
darkness3560
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I support 2 and 4.
FireBird2003
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I support ALL of them.

According to a WEBSITE, I have an I.Q. of 113!
terminator68
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I agree with most of these! The thing is, that I like following people that have good projects (I guess early on I was follow-happy, explaining the huge amount of people I am following). What if we just remove the number count next to “following” and “followers”? That way, we can follow people, and there is no real number assigned to it at first glance! Or, we could even just remove them from the view of others (e.g. when we log in, we can see our own followers and following lists).

Last edited by terminator68 (Oct. 10, 2013 09:44:36)


- Dante
xlk
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I'd rather for the following system be left alone as is.
no matter what, people will always be famous, and others will also want to be. They'll just do it in some other way.
thing is, people don't seem to look at who follows who, just the numbers, which is dumb: it's not the same being followed by someone who is a well known scratcher, as being followed by 50 spam accounts/ n00bs.

A-no-meep
Scratcher
100+ posts

Discussion for solving the "Fame" problem. (UPDATED)

I want to propose a new solution:
Cap the amount of people one person can follow.

This diminishes the problem by forcing people to follow those they are genuinely interested in, instead of following to get a follower.

It should be about a 10-40 people maximum, and people who are currently above the limit keep their choices of who they follow, but can't follow more people.


I aslo support solutions 2 & 4.

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