Discuss Scratch

savaka
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

scratchisthebest wrote:

by this logic, we can remove “move (10) steps”

why not just use
go to x: ((x position) + ([cos v] of ((direction)*(amt)))) y ((x position) + ([sin v] of ((direction)*(amt))))
i mean jeez so simple
It's not simple. Scratch is supposed to be easy to use. Not everyone knows trigonometry.

xlk wrote:

and while we are at it, the “wait” block is also unnecessary, as you can use the timer for it.
BTW, I remember reading somewhere that scratch's blocks are faster than a series of blocks doing the same, so (()^()) would be technically speaking faster than doing logarithms. I mean, is it that hard to add scratchteam?
You could, but that would make less sense, and it's supposed to be easy to use.
scratchisthebest
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

Which is the entire point of our posts.

Someone suggested “hurr use 2 logarihms” which is laughably slow, hard to use, and doesn't even always work.
Also one with a repeat block, which also is very slow and takes forever to enter in.

My trig junk has the same problem, but following their logic, it should be used because we can make it with existing blocks.

I am a Lava Expert
mitchboy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

Why would you even need a (() ^ ()) block other than a calculator (in which you could just use the workarounds)?

Oh, and you could just check if (exponent) < (0) for negative powers to work.

Last edited by mitchboy (Sept. 21, 2013 16:00:20)


Capsicum annuum.
firedrake969_test
Scratcher
500+ posts

Power block

scratchisthebest wrote:

Which is the entire point of our posts.

Someone suggested “hurr use 2 logarihms” which is laughably slow, hard to use, and doesn't even always work.
Also one with a repeat block, which also is very slow and takes forever to enter in.

My trig junk has the same problem, but following their logic, it should be used because we can make it with existing blocks.
Yea…

Most people learn exponents before they learn logarithms. I know I did.

Support for adding.

Alt account of Firedrake969.

Rocket II: A black and white bitmap space game!

I seek not fame, but education.

;
Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

when GF clicked
set [x v] to [0]
set [y v] to [0]
repeat (y)
set [x v] to ((x) * (y))
end
Try that.

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!
Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

Poemon1_REMIX wrote:

when GF clicked
set [x v] to [0]
set [y v] to [0]
repeat (y)
set [x v] to ((x) * (y))
end
Try that.
Didn't work, but my new project does!

Scratch cat knows exponents

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!
savaka
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

Poemon1_REMIX wrote:

when GF clicked
set [x v] to [0]
set [y v] to [0]
repeat (y)
set [x v] to ((x) * (y))
end
Try that.
Here it only works if y is a natural number. A block could do anything.

Last edited by savaka (Sept. 21, 2013 18:55:22)

mitchboy
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

savaka wrote:

Poemon1_REMIX wrote:

when GF clicked
set [x v] to [0]
set [y v] to [0]
repeat (y)
set [x v] to ((x) * (y))
end
Try that.
Here it only works if y is a natural number. A block could do anything.
If (y)<(0) then
repeat (y)
set [x v] to ((x) * (y))
_
set [x v] to ((1) / (x))

Boom. It now works for negatives. And you can use (mod (1)) then the log method for non-integers.

Last edited by mitchboy (Sept. 22, 2013 19:57:26)


Capsicum annuum.
savaka
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

I understand all these work, but wouldn't a block be way easier for new Scratchers? I have no idea what logarithms are.
Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

savaka wrote:

I understand all these work, but wouldn't a block be way easier for new Scratchers? I have no idea what logarithms are.
A logarithm is like a reverse power. For example,
How many 5's are in 15?
5 ^ 3 = 15,
LOG(5)15 = 3.

Here's the format:
LOGS:
LOG(base)answer = power

POWERS:
base ^ power = answer.
just switch around power and answer.

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!
savaka
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

Poemon1_REMIX wrote:

savaka wrote:

I understand all these work, but wouldn't a block be way easier for new Scratchers? I have no idea what logarithms are.
A logarithm is like a reverse power. For example,
How many 5's are in 15?
5 ^ 3 = 15,
LOG(5)15 = 3.

Here's the format:
LOGS:
LOG(base)answer = power

POWERS:
base ^ power = answer.
just switch around power and answer.
Log seems to take 2 parameters. Scratch's advanced math block only takes 1!
DadOfMrLog
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

savaka wrote:

Log seems to take 2 parameters. Scratch's advanced math block only takes 1!
Logarithm of a number (say a) for a particular base (say b) is usually written as logb a - where the small b is the closest I could write to a subscript using BBCode.

But there are certain bases for which the notation is normally simplified. One of these is base 10, in which case the subscript b is usually dropped (unless there's a reason to show it explicitly, to avoid confusion, or to make it really clear what is meant). So the “log” in Scratch's drop-down means base 10 logarithm.

The other is the so called "natural logarithm", which is logarithm to base e (=2.718281828459045…)
In that case it is written as “ln” (lower case L and N). This is also in the Scratch maths drop-down.

You can think of “log” as being the ‘opposite’ of “10 to the power” - so that log(10^n)=n.
Similarly, you can think of “ln” as being the ‘opposite’ of "e to the power" - hence ln(e^n)=n.

That's why the two methods for x^y that I outlined earlier using those blocks are identical:
([10^ v] of ((y) * ([log v] of (x))) // =  x^y
([e^ v] of ((y) * ([ln v] of (x))) // = x^y

Hope that make sense!

Last edited by DadOfMrLog (Sept. 23, 2013 13:10:29)



Alternate account: TheLogFather –– HowTos and useful custom blocks (see studio). Examples below…


- String manipulation - - - X to power of Y - - - Clone point to clone - Detect New Scratcher - Speed tests studio -

Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

DadOfMrLog wrote:

savaka wrote:

Log seems to take 2 parameters. Scratch's advanced math block only takes 1!
Logarithm of a number (say a) for a particular base (say b) is usually written as logb a - where the small b is the closest I could write to a subscript using BBCode.

But there are certain bases for which the notation is normally simplified. One of these is base 10, in which case the subscript b is usually dropped (unless there's a reason to show it explicitly, to avoid confusion, or to make it really clear what is meant). So the “log” in Scratch's drop-down means base 10 logarithm.

The other is the so called "natural logarithm", which is logarithm to base e (=2.718281828459045…)
In that case it is written as “ln” (lower case L and N). This is also in the Scratch maths drop-down.

You can think of “log” as being the ‘opposite’ of “10 to the power” - so that log(10^n)=n.
Similarly, you can think of “ln” as being the ‘opposite’ of "e to the power" - hence ln(e^n)=n.

That's why the two methods for x^y that I outlined earlier using those blocks are identical:
([10^ v] of ((y) * ([log v] of (x))) // =  x^y
([e^ v] of ((y) * ([ln v] of (x))) // = x^y

Hope that make sense!
Ya, I was going to get on to that next. Also, LOG(x) is equivalent to LOG(x)^y, right?

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!
SuperNicky
Scratcher
100+ posts

Power block

power what do you mean power?

Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

SuperNicky wrote:

power what do you mean power?
like 5^2 = 25, or 2^3 = 8.

(^ is power)

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!
savaka
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

DadOfMrLog wrote:

savaka wrote:

Log seems to take 2 parameters. Scratch's advanced math block only takes 1!
Logarithm of a number (say a) for a particular base (say b) is usually written as logb a - where the small b is the closest I could write to a subscript using BBCode.

But there are certain bases for which the notation is normally simplified. One of these is base 10, in which case the subscript b is usually dropped (unless there's a reason to show it explicitly, to avoid confusion, or to make it really clear what is meant). So the “log” in Scratch's drop-down means base 10 logarithm.

The other is the so called "natural logarithm", which is logarithm to base e (=2.718281828459045…)
In that case it is written as “ln” (lower case L and N). This is also in the Scratch maths drop-down.

You can think of “log” as being the ‘opposite’ of “10 to the power” - so that log(10^n)=n.
Similarly, you can think of “ln” as being the ‘opposite’ of "e to the power" - hence ln(e^n)=n.

That's why the two methods for x^y that I outlined earlier using those blocks are identical:
([10^ v] of ((y) * ([log v] of (x))) // =  x^y
([e^ v] of ((y) * ([ln v] of (x))) // = x^y

Hope that make sense!
Oh, I get it. You use multiplication.
DadOfMrLog
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

savaka wrote:

DadOfMrLog wrote:

That's why the two methods for x^y that I outlined earlier using those blocks are identical:
([10^ v] of ((y) * ([log v] of (x))) // =  x^y
([e^ v] of ((y) * ([ln v] of (x))) // = x^y

Hope that make sense!
Oh, I get it. You use multiplication.
Yes, if you know about how things multiply (and divide) within logs, you'll know the following identities:

log(x*y) = log(x) + log(y)
log(x/y) = log(x) - log(y)

Above is true for any base logarithm, but let's just stick with base 10 to avoid having lots of subscripts.

Now, if you take that first one and do something like log(x^4) = log(x*x*x*x), you see it's just log(x)+log(x)+log(x)+log(x), i.e. 4*log(x).

It's not hard to see the generalisation of that: log(x^y) = y*log(x).
That one is particularly important for us here, because it contains the x^y that we want to calculate.

We know that 10^ and log are ‘opposites’, which means that log(10^n) = n.
…and also: 10^(log n) = n.

If you put n = x^y into that, and use the identity above, guess what you find…


Alternate account: TheLogFather –– HowTos and useful custom blocks (see studio). Examples below…


- String manipulation - - - X to power of Y - - - Clone point to clone - Detect New Scratcher - Speed tests studio -

firedrake969_test
Scratcher
500+ posts

Power block

The thing is that you can't do negative numbers with logs.

Alt account of Firedrake969.

Rocket II: A black and white bitmap space game!

I seek not fame, but education.

;
DadOfMrLog
Scratcher
1000+ posts

Power block

firedrake969_test wrote:

The thing is that you can't do negative numbers with logs.
OK, so here's my definitive x^y custom block…
define result = (x) ^ (y)
if <(y) = [0]> then
set [result v] to [1] // yes, we also include 0^0=1 :O
else
if <(x) = [0]> then
set [result v] to [0] // 0^y=0 for any y except zero (see above)
else
set [result v] to ([e^ v] of ((y)*([ln v] of ([abs v] of (x)))) // no negative x for now
if <(x) < [0]> then // now deal with power of negative number
if <(round(y)) = (y)> then // we can do integer powers of negative numbers
if <((y) mod (2)) = [1]> then
set [result v] to ((0) - (result)) // odd powers will be negative
end
else
set [result v] to [NaN] // but let's not go there at this stage...
end
end
if <<(y) > [0]> and <<(round(x)) = (x)> and <(round(y)) = (y)>>> then
set [result v] to (round (result)) // ensure we get exactly an integer if both x & y were ints
end
end
end
That should cover everything but non-integer powers of negative numbers (which gets a bit hairy…), and it makes sure that integer raised to integer gives exactly an integer (in case you assume you'll get an integer, perhaps because you check for equality with an integer at some point).

Hope I've got that all right!

Last edited by DadOfMrLog (Sept. 23, 2013 23:03:00)



Alternate account: TheLogFather –– HowTos and useful custom blocks (see studio). Examples below…


- String manipulation - - - X to power of Y - - - Clone point to clone - Detect New Scratcher - Speed tests studio -

Poemon1_REMIX
New to Scratch
100+ posts

Power block

DadOfMrLog wrote:

firedrake969_test wrote:

The thing is that you can't do negative numbers with logs.
OK, so here's my definitive x^y custom block…
define result = (x) ^ (y)
if <(y) = [0]> then
set [result v] to [1] // yes, we also include 0^0=1 :O
else
if <(x) = [0]> then
set [result v] to [0] // 0^y=0 for any y except zero (see above)
else
set [result v] to ([e^ v] of ((y)*([ln v] of ([abs v] of (x)))) // no negative x for now
if <(x) < [0]> then // now deal with power of negative number
if <(round(y)) = (y)> then // we can do integer powers of negative numbers
if <((y) mod (2)) = [1]> then
set [result v] to ((0) - (result)) // odd powers will be negative
end
else
set [result v] to [NaN] // but let's not go there at this stage...
end
end
if <<(y) > [0]> and <<(round(x)) = (x)> and <(round(y)) = (y)>>> then
set [result v] to (round (result)) // ensure we get exactly an integer if both x & y were ints
end
end
end
That should cover everything but non-integer powers of negative numbers (which gets a bit hairy…), and it makes sure that integer raised to integer gives exactly an integer (in case you assume you'll get an integer, perhaps because you check for equality with an integer at some point).

Hope I've got that all right!
Ooh. Pretty big script! Let me rephrase that. really big script!

I invented stuffed pizza rolls! Insert turkey into the pizza rolls, and enjoy!

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