Okay, so, I am writing this message for many reasons, the first one being the amount of AI generated images that are all over scratch. I have seen a lot of AI generated images being posted on scratch, a lot of them were posted under false pretenses (the creator of the project claimed they drew it with something such as Ibis Paint, but the art was obviously AI and they had no sketches and were proven to be lying) some of them were not lying but this still brings up the actual ethical concerns of using AI generators to create “art”.

1: AI generators steal art. AI is not truly creative, I would call it art if AI was truly intelligent, but it's not. It can only copy things from it's database and use that data to create the shoddy amalgam that we call AI “art”. The images in it's database are stolen from real artists, usually without their permission.
Some of the art may even be copyrighted, which means that the art that the AI generator makes is actually borderline illegal. Even if the art is not copyrighted, I've never met an artist in my life that would willingly give their art to a generator. While there are probably a few that would, AI generators still steal art, and are not capable of creating actual art.

2: AI is terrible for the environment. AI is very bad for the environment, as it takes up huge amount of water JUST FOR THE COOLING OF THE AI SERVERS. I'm not even talking about the electricity or anything like that. The amount of water that AI takes just to cool it, is absolutely insane, and it's predicted that with the way things are going right now the UK will face a drought by 2030

3: AI is basically the death of creativity. Using AI is no more creative than walking up to someone on the street and saying, “Draw me a cat.” You are doing, basically nothing when you use AI. Your literally just typing in what you want it to draw and then it draws it for you. Scratch is supposed to be a place of creativity, but when you let AI “art” be on this website, you completely defeat the point of creativity. Not only is it unethical in so many ways, it's also just… nothing. Making something with AI is about as big an accomplishment as telling someone to draw you Freddy Fazbear, and then they draw you Freddy Fazbear. You played basically no part in it. (Not that I don't respect the people who created the AI art generators for creating them, creating them was probably extremely hard.)

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

I support. AI is soulless and if anything can actually risk your account getting banned. Once I saw a AI story project that used AI art and in the description there was a ton of unrelated tags so I asked the project creator (was already telling them about how ai was bad already) about the tags and they said like the AI made the tags (and btw unrelated tags can get a project deleted). AI should be banned from scratch, art or not and even then just have a notice saying the content is ai (which I made a suggestion for but I can’t find the topic). And even then AI beats the purpose of the imagine part of scratch’s slogan. You aren’t imaging anything, you are just making a robot slave do the work for you so you can program the rest and share it as “your own”.

I would like to add, that if a project creator is claiming they drew something when they didn't, you could most likely report the project under “This project is misleading or is trying to trick the community.”

Here's my opinion on this - it's just personal preference, and I'm certainly open to discussing it as needed! I think AI art is very accessible to people. Yes, people should learn how to draw (speaking as a terrible artist + someone who's not a huge fan of AI at its current state) –> but it certainly is easy to put in a prompt and generate a quick, profile picture, for example.

Generally things are only banned on Scratch if they're inappropriate - for example, Squid Game & Hazbin Hotel had some inappropriate projects created about them - they were banned completely. However, even things like FNAF (which caused students to have nightmares) aren't completely banned - you can make a FNAF dressup game minus the horror elements and still keep your project up.

What I'm trying to say here is that I personally believe AI art shouldn't be banned completely - currently it's not causing major problems (as far as I know of), ex. exposing children to inappropriate content.

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

1: AI generators steal art.

Completely fair - however, I think this is more of a moral problem with the generators themselves, not with Scratch.

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

2: AI is terrible for the environment.

Same as above, plus Scratch doesn't really have its own AI generator, so I think this isn't much of a Scratch-based problem. I don't think banning AI art would do much for this - people can and will continue to use it outside of Scratch.

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

3: AI is basically the death of creativity..

Also fair, although this time I'd argue there are plenty more people who are making non-AI works (ex. designing a MAP) than the people who are creating with AI on Scratch. This is, again, reasonable, but I don't think a kid generating an AI profile picture is going to be too damaged by it developmentally.

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

I think we should work towards encouraging more ethical AI use instead of just outright banning it completely, especially on a platform focused towards teaching kids how to code completely. Perhaps if it keeps escalating, some sort of official post or tips on how to use AI together with your own knowledge to create a new product.

I'd be open to suggestions/more discussion about this post! Thanks for reading the entire thing.

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

The main problem is: how do you know whether a particular image is AI-generated art or not?

Yes, with some pictures it is quite obvious… but unfortunately “I'm 99% sure this is AI art” doesn't hold up in a report without any proof. So the only way to reliably tell that AI art is used in a project is if the project creator says, e.g., “Credit to ChatGPT for the art.” But then once word starts getting out that AI art is banned, then I think people would just stop crediting AI altogether — and then the art won't be able to be reliably reported as mentioned above.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying one way or another whether AI art should be banned… but one would need to think carefully about how this should be enforced.

Robotdante wrote:

Watch out for stuff like extra fingers and weird color patterns. When it’s “3-D”, you will notice everything looks like plastic. The next thing I know is because of personal experience. I saw a board game cover, and it looked very AI-ish. It had no artist mention, and then i saw, and EVERY board game contained the artist’s name. Plus, the “cats” had an inconsistent number of fingers.

[link to post]

I completely understand what you mean, but the problem is still there: one cannot be 100% sure that someone's art is AI-generated. Yes, AI art definitely has a certain style to it, and often contains mistakes, but human art also has varying styles and mistakes. I'm not sure if there's a way to 100% (not just 99%) conclude that a particular piece of art was AI-generated.

I want to be very very clear that I'm not saying the OP's suggestion is a bad idea. I'm just saying that, if someone's actual art gets removed from Scratch because someone else thought it was AI-generated, that would be a big problem. Is there any way to combat that?

Oh also, look at this petition https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1186029824.

Za-Chary wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

The main problem is: how do you know whether a particular image is AI-generated art or not?

Yes, with some pictures it is quite obvious… but unfortunately “I'm 99% sure this is AI art” doesn't hold up in a report without any proof. So the only way to reliably tell that AI art is used in a project is if the project creator says, e.g., “Credit to ChatGPT for the art.” But then once word starts getting out that AI art is banned, then I think people would just stop crediting AI altogether — and then the art won't be able to be reliably reported as mentioned above.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying one way or another whether AI art should be banned… but one would need to think carefully about how this should be enforced.

probably a report option of sorts (I’m not the topic owner tho this is just speculation)

I agree with this post. I could think of multiple reasons why generative AI (not just AI art) should not be used.
(On a side note, I think the original post is well worded, well done )

I would like to share a couple of opinions here. I don’t mean any disrespect, these are just my thoughts:

pasta_enjoyer7 wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

2: AI is terrible for the environment.

Same as above, plus Scratch doesn't really have its own AI generator, so I think this isn't much of a Scratch-based problem. I don't think banning AI art would do much for this - people can and will continue to use it outside of Scratch.

Though that may be true thinking about it on a large scale, if every website thinks the same way nothing will happen. If scratch could stand up to AI (even in a small way) it would still make a small impact, and maybe inspire others to do the same. I don’t mean banning it entirely, that could be almost impossible especially as AI has started to get very good at impersonating human art and it could lead to people's art getting falsely reported.

pasta_enjoyer7 wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

I think we should work towards encouraging more ethical AI use instead of just outright banning it completely, especially on a platform focused towards teaching kids how to code completely. Perhaps if it keeps escalating, some sort of official post or tips on how to use AI together with your own knowledge to create a new product.

Right now I don’t think there is a way of using AI ‘ethically’, especially in the case of the planet. I don’t think scratch should be encouraging kids to use AI which wastes so much of our resources. Instead could I suggest the scratch team makes a project on the use of AI and how to use it responsibly, and spread awareness to the kids on this site of exactly how much water and energy it uses.

At the end of the day there will still be people who use it and don’t care, but it might change a few people's minds, as I’ve recently discovered not that many people actually know AI even uses any water at all in its process.

I'm not going to comment on whether AI is okay or not (because at this point, it can go either way), but what I will say is that this seems very subjective.

While OP isn't wrong about the moral implications of using AI, GenAI content doesn't violate the Community Guidelines. It also would probably make people that use Ai pretty angry if Scratch banned the usage of AI.

It kinda is the similar situation with generic platformers - it's controversial, but it doesn't really violate the Community Guidelines.

EDIT: I should probably clarify that this refers to image generation scenarios. AI text generation for forum posts, for example, are banned.

I believe AI in projects is allowed (i.e. images and/or sounds as) as long as they’re credited. However, I think projects made themselves entirely by AI are not allowed. Maybe I’m on to something weird, but if i recall correctly, it’s like that.

Za-Chary wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

The main problem is: how do you know whether a particular image is AI-generated art or not?

Yes, with some pictures it is quite obvious… but unfortunately “I'm 99% sure this is AI art” doesn't hold up in a report without any proof. So the only way to reliably tell that AI art is used in a project is if the project creator says, e.g., “Credit to ChatGPT for the art.” But then once word starts getting out that AI art is banned, then I think people would just stop crediting AI altogether — and then the art won't be able to be reliably reported as mentioned above.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying one way or another whether AI art should be banned… but one would need to think carefully about how this should be enforced.

Watch out for stuff like extra fingers and weird color patterns. When it’s “3-D”, you will notice everything looks like plastic. The next thing I know is because of personal experience. I saw a board game cover, and it looked very AI-ish. It had no artist mention, and then i saw, and EVERY board game contained the artist’s name. Plus, the “cats” had an inconsistent number of fingers.

Za-Chary wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

The main problem is: how do you know whether a particular image is AI-generated art or not?

Yes, with some pictures it is quite obvious… but unfortunately “I'm 99% sure this is AI art” doesn't hold up in a report without any proof. So the only way to reliably tell that AI art is used in a project is if the project creator says, e.g., “Credit to ChatGPT for the art.” But then once word starts getting out that AI art is banned, then I think people would just stop crediting AI altogether — and then the art won't be able to be reliably reported as mentioned above.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying one way or another whether AI art should be banned… but one would need to think carefully about how this should be enforced.

I've seen so much AI art, it's actually kinda easy to tell if it's AI or not. Malformed limbs, random blurs, floating… “things” in the background, not to mention the same cartoon style

Olimon7661 wrote:

Za-Chary wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

What I'm basically saying: We should ban ALL AI generated images from scratch. It should be a rule, that you cannot post an image that is generated by AI, as it is unethical in so many ways, and is really just not creative in anyway, which defeats the entire point of having a website where kids can express their creativity.

The main problem is: how do you know whether a particular image is AI-generated art or not?

Yes, with some pictures it is quite obvious… but unfortunately “I'm 99% sure this is AI art” doesn't hold up in a report without any proof. So the only way to reliably tell that AI art is used in a project is if the project creator says, e.g., “Credit to ChatGPT for the art.” But then once word starts getting out that AI art is banned, then I think people would just stop crediting AI altogether — and then the art won't be able to be reliably reported as mentioned above.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying one way or another whether AI art should be banned… but one would need to think carefully about how this should be enforced.

I've seen so much AI art, it's actually kinda easy to tell if it's AI or not. Malformed limbs, random blurs, floating… “things” in the background, not to mention the same cartoon style

They also have no artist mentions. (This is for board games.)

With other replies in the post, I've realized the problem isn't AI Art, it's people using this art to compete in competitions. I wanna report this to be closed, but I don't know how, neither do I know if this is a valid reason.

I would like to point out here, that no matter what, AI is terrible for the environment, so it's basically impossible to have an ethical AI generator, even if there are no other ethical concerns, (which I think is highly impromable, just because it's not copyrighted does'nt mean that you can just put it into an AI generator, it's still unethical even if it's not legal.) Though finding an ethical AI generator in the aspect of the art theft is possible but unlikely in my opinion.

Also no matter what, it's still not art, because it's made by a computer program.

here's my thoughts:
while i strongly disagree with the uses of generative ai in most circumstances (although i can't complain for o2's daisy model), you should still have freedom of expression to share what you like on scratch. furthermore, ai raises many copyright concerns, and while the current copyright infrastructure was not written with ai in mind, it may be beneficial to either simply require users to mention where ai is used, or (even though this is an expensive idea) use a “probability that this asset was generated by AI” component. under fair use, there is the infrastructure to, provided credit is given, use sounds, arts and ideas from other people royalty-free. with that said, if the scratch team upholds a dmca complaint from a copyright holder, you no longer have the right to use the content for your project.

with that said, i do think that you should be required to admit to use of ai for all of the assets that it was used for, and you should be recommended to share the prompt used to generate each given asset, if possible and applicable.

there's sadly little you can do alone to stop generative ai from being used for these purposes, but i would indeed like to see it raised by lawmakers and discussed in parliamentary debates. unfortunately, i fear that the one big beautiful bill does hamper this.

Banana

Yeah, but AI generated thing's are not expression in any way, encouraging the use of AI is basically the death of creative expression, AI literally does all the work for you it basically undoes all the work of creative thinking and art, AI is soulless and mindless, why would we have it on a site that is supposed to be about creativity?

And it's still art theft no matter what, it's not just about the copyright, art can still be stolen even if it's not copyrighted. Taking someone's art without permission is still theft, and tons of people have had their art stolen by generators. And you can't deny how bad it is for the environment, like by letting AI generated things be on scratch, your encouraging a crazy amount of unethical things, on top of essentially killing creativity.

Someone even said “AI was supposed to do the dishes and I do the art, but AI is doing the art and i’m doing the dishes.”

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

Yeah, but AI generated thing's are not expression in any way, encouraging the use of AI is basically the death of creative expression, AI literally does all the work for you it basically undoes all the work of creative thinking and art, AI is soulless and mindless, why would we have it on a site that is supposed to be about creativity?

And it's still art theft no matter what, it's not just about the copyright, art can still be stolen even if it's not copyrighted. Taking someone's art without permission is still theft, and tons of people have had their art stolen by generators. And you can't deny how bad it is for the environment, like by letting AI generated things be on scratch, your encouraging a crazy amount of unethical things, on top of essentially killing creativity.

yeah but permission isn't a thing on scratch. it's built so that you can take anything as you please, as long as dmca takedown requests are not upheld by the scratch team. you're allowed to upload any content you like, as long as it falls within the scgs and that's true regardless of whether it was ai generated or not.

Banana

banana439monkey wrote:

-PurpleSpecter- wrote:

Yeah, but AI generated thing's are not expression in any way, encouraging the use of AI is basically the death of creative expression, AI literally does all the work for you it basically undoes all the work of creative thinking and art, AI is soulless and mindless, why would we have it on a site that is supposed to be about creativity?

And it's still art theft no matter what, it's not just about the copyright, art can still be stolen even if it's not copyrighted. Taking someone's art without permission is still theft, and tons of people have had their art stolen by generators. And you can't deny how bad it is for the environment, like by letting AI generated things be on scratch, your encouraging a crazy amount of unethical things, on top of essentially killing creativity.

yeah but permission isn't a thing on scratch. it's built so that you can take anything as you please, as long as dmca takedown requests are not upheld by the scratch team. you're allowed to upload any content you like, as long as it falls within the scgs and that's true regardless of whether it was ai generated or not.

Banana

I agree with permission Isn't a thing on scratch. but if you are supposed to be able to take anything then why is there an option for exact copy of project when you go to report?

Also this Isn't about AI taking things off scratch (even though it probably does) you can't keep AI from taking things off of scratch unless AI stops being used. This is about keeping AI slop off of scratch

Exactly, AI is unethical no matter what, and yeah posting AI is not currently against the rules, that's why I created my petition (it has a crazy amount of supporter's just look at it) and why I created this discussion. But honestly AI is sort of against scratch rules because it's still basically plagarizing people offsite and actually a lot of scratchers have had their art stolen by AI generators so actually it's kind of plagarizing them as well.