ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

(#164)
-snip-
this issue could just be solved by working with us. I can't gurantee it for every scratch camp here, but I will gladly bring this up to the SWC hosts if that works with he rest of you. I mean, this whole issue is honestly being overdramatized when this is a simple fix that could have been done a long time ago.
-snip-

Also, if the Scratch Team doesn't explicitly disallow this and we stop it unofficially, what if it resurfaces 1 year from now when we all forget about this problem?

Terms of Use wrote:

4.1 For the purposes of the Terms of Use, “user-generated content” includes any projects, comments, forum posts, or links to third party websites that a user submits to Scratch.

4.3 All user-generated content you submit to Scratch is licensed to and through Scratch under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license. This allows others to view and remix your content. This license also allows the Scratch Team to display, distribute, and reproduce your content on the Scratch website, through social media channels, and elsewhere. If you do not want to license your content under this license, then do not share it on Scratch.

As with people saying you aren't allowed to use their assets or remix their projects, they can't enforce it. As it does break the ToU, it's probably worth reporting these posts, along with posts or comments specifically telling you not to stalk their forum thread.

bump

The examples you listed are all disrespectful so you should report them as soon as possible

I think that a polite spoiler warning is definitely fine, as you said, but saying things like ‘get out stalker’ or ‘hi stalker, leave’ ‘leave if not invited’ are not okay. Those are restrictive and are basically trying to tell Scratchers that they can and can't view certain topics, which is not what Scratch is about. Scratch says Imagine, Program, Share. People always forget the Share part, hm? But they don't realise how important it is. There's nothing wrong with viewing camp topics (it's always SWC topics I see doing this) if you're not a member of that Scratch camp or collab. If you want people to join in future collabs, you should let people see what it's like to be in it.

Also, those topic creators are eating their words. Nothing is stopping users from scrolling past and reading it.

-> Additional thing to add to your suggestion to make it even better:
I'm pretty sure that adding comments and spam blocks over code to prevent remixing isn't allowed.. so is putting loads and loads of blank space on a topic to deter readers from reading okay? I think that should be banned too. It's spam and it's trying to stop people from remixing.. by force.

support
saying to not look at something that you publicly published doesn't really make sense, maybe just a spoiler warning

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

They aren't imposing any false restrictions, aren't excluding scratchers, and from what I know they don't break cg's ^^

There was also something brought up about calling people stalkers? Which to me does not make much sense, since it IS technically stalking. Looking at a conversation without one's notice is stalking, and it's common. And there's no need to have a negative emphasis on stalking unless it is breaking some kind of rule of whatever, or just not respecting boundaries.

Anyway this is getting long haha, my main pont is that those anti-stalking messages are meant to put an emphasis on respect rather than be hostile, and while I do admit I have seen some hostile messages before, instead of completely banning them, we can work on tweaking/setting guidelines so that they do not cause problems ^^ We just want everyone to be respectful.

(And a quick note, I'm starting to see a lot of trolling when it comes to this. As in, people deliberately cross boundaries and post on topics they aren't expected to. This is highly discouraged because at the end of the day, it's about respecting others and yourself, and not being obnoxious. There is nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting unrelated messages to clog up a forum topic when it's for an entirely different purpose)

A) They are imposing false restrictions. No Scratcher has the right to tell other people that they are “not allowed” to read a topic. That's very condescending behaviour. Nobody likes being told what to do if said person has no authority over them.

B) The Anti-Stalking messages do exclude Scratchers. A lot. By telling users ‘Only so-and-so can view this. If you are not those people, leave now!’, Scratchers who are not so-and-so are excluded; they're being told that because they're not someone else, they're not allowed somewhere and don't belong there.

C) The CGs clearly say ‘Treat everyone with respect’. It's nowhere near respectful to send a message like this:

If you are a member of the Blahblah Section of Blahblah Camp, welcome! ^^
If you are not a member of that section of this camp, leave! Stop stalking our topic because the writing will be spoiled for you. I repeat: LEAVE, STALKER!

Or this:

Welcome members of SWC Camp.
If you're not a member of SWC, leave. Only SWC members belong here. Not you.

D) It's not stalking. Please read a dictionary. A stalker is someone who harasses or persecutes someone else with obsessive and unwanted attention, or someone hunts game stealthily. Neither descriptions necessarily fit a Scratcher who is reading a writing topic. Stalking could have some other slang meaning, and it probably does, but that doesn't mean that it's okay to call someone that. It's disrespectful.

E) What emphasis on respect? These anti-stalking messages stick labels on people without even checking if that's who they are, telling people to go away when the motive of the reader is unknown, patronising a user by telling them they're not allowed to go somewhere, and somehow that's okay? That's not.

F) Tweaking and setting guidelines? We shouldn't even need to. I thought it was common knowledge that you can't be rude to people, but there must be people who dreadfully lack it, because hostility is never acceptable.

G) No one said there will be unrelated messages. Those unrelated messages and spam aren't allowed anyways.

H) Just because you want people to be respectful doesn't mean you can use all means to try and get there.

Little tip: You should tell SWC members to link all their SWC threads. This way, they really think about what they write, since it's public. And the managers can manage.. By checking those threads

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

The main argument I've seen here is that anti-stalking forums impose false restrictions on scratchers or whatever. This coming in the form of “if you aren't a part of this group and whatnot, then please leave.” The purpose of anti-stalking messages in SWC have always been to warn potential campers of spoiling their camping experience. It also serves as a purpose to ward off unrelated posts which clog up the topic and are honestly quite rude. Which is why a lot of anti-stalking messages encourage people to leave, for their own benefit. Now, no one said that we expect these to be 100% foolproof and to work every time. Warnings are ignored, everyone knows that. The (co)leaders and hosts of SWC, and anyone organizing any scratch camp or any exclusive collaboration project understand this as well. At the end of the day, if you do decide to read through the entire forum, that is up to you. /lh

If the problem you have with anti-stalking messages is about the “please leave” notice, then instead of the passive-aggressive comments I've seen on this thread directed towards us, this issue could just be solved by working with us. I can't gurantee it for every scratch camp here, but I will gladly bring this up to the SWC hosts if that works with he rest of you. I mean, this whole issue is honestly being overdramatized when this is a simple fix that could have been done a long time ago.

A) Which they do

B) Then SWC clearly needs to be more transparent. Rather than hide true motives in a triple helping of sour waffles, they should really show their true motive. If it's to stop people from being spoiled, they should say it.

C) Unrelated posts aren't allowed anyway, it's not that hard to click Report on a post and say ‘This is unrelated’ and submit the report. Done. As simple as that.

D) I think unrelated posts are much better than the anti-stalking messages that are much ruder. Someone randomly saying ‘Slay’ on a topic is so much nicer than someone saying ‘get out stalker and if you don’t i'll mass report ya'.

E) Encourage? Encourage? That may well be the biggest understatement I've ever read online. Those anti-stalking messages don't just encourage. They pressure, harass and bully people into leaving. And that's not an overstatement.

F) The passive-aggressive comments? No one's being passive-aggressive.

Dictionary wrote:

(of behaviour) characterized by indirect resistance to the demands of others and avoidance of direct confrontation.

Indirectly resisting demands? Not applicable. Nobody's trying to avoid direct confrontation.
I believe you may be referring to the references on SWC. SWC is the one being mentioned here because it's one of the biggest offenders of hostile anti-stalking messages. Yes, that's undeniable.

G) Please bring it up to them.

H) No one is being overdramatic. It's a real problem, for goodness' sake! It's an actual eyesore to see these words, no one wants to be called a stalker! How would you feel if I told you ‘Get off Scratch, you don’t belong here, LEAVE STALKER!' You'd be offended, right? That's what anti-stalking messages are like, just replace ‘Scratch’ with ‘this topic’. See it now? It's not overdramatised.

iiucandyfloss wrote:

snip

I just wanted to reinforce this with a few examples. Patronizing (treating in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority) parts will be marked red, and false restrictions will be marked blue. Things that are OK will be marked green.

heyy if you're not a (this collab) co/leader or i didn't give you permission to be here please leave, swc runs on an honor system and we hope that you'll respect our privacy! <33

If you are not (part of this collab) , please click off this forum <3 It is the session of SWC, and so to prevent any spoilers we ask you to not read any further–SWC is an honor system after all <33

As always, SWC runs on an honor system, so if you aren't a committee member, please refrain from posting comments or stalking this forum

If you aren't participating in the upcoming session as a host or co-host, I politely ask that you leave this forum This is especially important for those of you who are planning to join the the next session so that nothing is spoiled and that you have a great time! Thank you for your understanding <3


All of the messages above could be summarized in a nice way with “Please don't post here unless you are participating, and keep in mind that this contains spoilers”. This message I created is 1. not patronizing, 2. not imposing false restrictions, while 3. still politely asking people not to post unrelated things and warning of spoilers.

MagicCoder330 wrote:

iiucandyfloss wrote:

snip

I just wanted to reinforce this with a few examples. Patronizing (treating in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority) parts will be marked red, and false restrictions will be marked blue. Things that are OK will be marked green.
-snip-
All of the messages above could be summarized in a nice way with “Please don't post here unless you are participating, and keep in mind that this contains spoilers”. This message I created is 1. not patronizing, 2. not imposing false restrictions, while 3. still politely asking people not to post unrelated things and warning of spoilers.

Thanks! I think that ‘if you aren’t a committee member' isn't really patronising though and the word politely could simply just be there to show politeness

iiucandyfloss wrote:

MagicCoder330 wrote:

iiucandyfloss wrote:

snip

I just wanted to reinforce this with a few examples. Patronizing (treating in a way that is apparently kind or helpful but that betrays a feeling of superiority) parts will be marked red, and false restrictions will be marked blue. Things that are OK will be marked green.
-snip-
All of the messages above could be summarized in a nice way with “Please don't post here unless you are participating, and keep in mind that this contains spoilers”. This message I created is 1. not patronizing, 2. not imposing false restrictions, while 3. still politely asking people not to post unrelated things and warning of spoilers.

Thanks! I think that ‘if you aren’t a committee member' isn't really patronising though and the word politely could simply just be there to show politeness

Alright, I'll edit my post

bump

Support, this is a aggressive and sort of similar to “No remixing notices” .

However this is the most respectful forum i have ever been on. I love how both groups of are arguing their points in a respectful way and how they are willing to compromise, Keep up the respectful debate folks!

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

There was also something brought up about calling people stalkers?

I do feel like calling someone a stalker isnt exactly respectful though, and i wouldnt say just looking in a studio to be considered stalking, here is the definition in the dictionary app

Apple Dictionary wrote:

stalk | stôk |
verb
1 pursue or approach stealthily: a cat stalking a bird.
• mainly literary move silently or threateningly through (a place): the tiger stalks the jungle | figurative : fear stalked the camp.
2 harass or persecute (someone) with unwanted and obsessive attention: for five years she was stalked by a man who would taunt and threaten her.
3 stride somewhere in a proud, stiff, or angry manner: without another word she turned and stalked out.

iiucandyfloss wrote:

huge snip lol

H) No one is being overdramatic. It's a real problem, for goodness' sake! It's an actual eyesore to see these words, no one wants to be called a stalker! How would you feel if I told you ‘Get off Scratch, you don’t belong here, LEAVE STALKER!' You'd be offended, right? That's what anti-stalking messages are like, just replace ‘Scratch’ with ‘this topic’. See it now? It's not overdramatised.

(I kind of forgot about this thread haha)

See, I would love to discuss all of your points with you, however, your tone is out of line and passive-aggressive So I'll just leave it at that. If you really want an issue resolved, do so with respect instead of implying rude statements, such as

Unrelated posts aren't allowed anyway, it's not that hard to click Report on a post and say ‘This is unrelated’ and submit the report. Done. As simple as that.

- Does not excuse the behavior of one that leaves unrelated posts

Encourage? Encourage? That may well be the biggest understatement I've ever read online. Those anti-stalking messages don't just encourage. They pressure, harass and bully people into leaving. And that's not an overstatement.

- It is an overstatement actually. SWC is in no way condoning bullying and if you truly belive that, then you may ask the 300+ campers that participate in the camp.

It's not stalking. Please read a dictionary.

- Again, rude. I don't recall saying anything like that towards anyone here, and if I did then I apologize ^^

Tweaking and setting guidelines? We shouldn't even need to.

- By tweaking/setting guidelines, I meant something like this:

“Please take caution with anti-stalking messages posted in your SWC forums, as they imposed false restrictions, blah blah blah. If you're unsure on how to word one, here's an example below: (and a template would go here)”

Which I personally don’t see a problem with? Also:

I thought it was common knowledge that you can't be rude to people, but there must be people who dreadfully lack it, because hostility is never acceptable.

- I speak for myself and others when I say that I know what this implies. I would prefer that you don't insult people of not having common knowledge.

All in all, like I said countless times before, I'm just trying to be respectful and hear out your side and possibly help out, but I don't think saying things like this will help the situation at all. Please be more respectful next time, thank you <33

And ONE last thing:

{USER IDENTIFIED. ACCESS GRANTED. WARNING: UNAUTHORIZED USERS MUST NOT PROCEED PAST THIS MESSAGE}

This one is my message, and it's worded that way for the storyline that the forum is based in, it's not to serve as another anti-stalking message just wanted to clear that up

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

Encourage? Encourage? That may well be the biggest understatement I've ever read online. Those anti-stalking messages don't just encourage. They pressure, harass and bully people into leaving. And that's not an overstatement.

- It is an overstatement actually. SWC is in no way condoning bullying and if you truly belive that, then you may ask the 300+ campers that participate in the camp.

It's still pressuring and possible harassment. Definitely not in the bounds of bullying I would say, but it still, whether intentionally or unintentionally, pressures people into leaving.

I think we can try to compromise on a less negative word than stalking / stalker, as i do feel its bad to call people stalkers just for going to a studio, also i do think butter is right that a message like that does not really harrass and bully people, but it does pressure them, i mainly feel like we should find a less pressure inducing word other than stalking, like browsing, as i feel it would be alot more respectful, i will use example 2 in OP as a example of how i think a correct version would work

example 2 wrote:

If you aren't participating in the upcoming (name removed) session as a host or co-host, I ask that you leave this forum There's not much to gain from stalking it, so make the responsible choice and don't continue to do so!

and here

example 2 (Revised) wrote:

If you aren't participating in the upcoming (name removed) session as a host or co-host, I recommend that you leave this forum to avoid spoilers There's not much to gain from browsing it unless you want spoilers, you can of course look if you like, just know it would be a massive spoiler

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

snip

MagicCoder330 wrote:

All of the messages above could be summarized in a nice way with “Please don't post here unless you are participating, and keep in mind that this contains spoilers”

This is ALL that is necassary to get across the point, and should be left at that. Most of the time adding any more makes it sound passive aggressive. SWC should clearly state that anything other than it is not acceptable as it can sound condescending and rude. Emphasis on CLEARLY, because that is definitely not happening in the current SWC system.

this has been bumped

bump

I am @iiucandyfloss btw

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

iiucandyfloss wrote:

huge snip lol

H) No one is being overdramatic.

(I kind of forgot about this thread haha)

See, I would love to discuss all of your points with you, however, your tone is out of line and passive-aggressive So I'll just leave it at that. If you really want an issue resolved, do so with respect instead of implying rude statements, such as
-sniparoo-

I apologise for my tone, I definitely got heated and will edit my post.
Still, it's not rude to tell someone that it really isn't that hard to click report and type in 5 words. That's quite true and unless you have finger pain or joint pain or website issues, it's not difficult.

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

Unrelated posts aren't allowed anyway, it's not that hard to click Report on a post and say ‘This is unrelated’ and submit the report. Done. As simple as that.

- Does not excuse the behavior of one that leaves unrelated posts

Encourage? Encourage? That may well be the biggest understatement I've ever read online. Those anti-stalking messages don't just encourage. They pressure, harass and bully people into leaving. And that's not an overstatement.

- It is an overstatement actually. SWC is in no way condoning bullying and if you truly belive that, then you may ask the 300+ campers that participate in the camp.

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

It's not stalking. Please read a dictionary.

- Again, rude. I don't recall saying anything like that towards anyone here, and if I did then I apologize ^^

Tweaking and setting guidelines? We shouldn't even need to.

- By tweaking/setting guidelines, I meant something like this:

“Please take caution with anti-stalking messages posted in your SWC forums, as they imposed false restrictions, blah blah blah. If you're unsure on how to word one, here's an example below: (and a template would go here)”

Which I personally don’t see a problem with?

A) Okay, that is. It's not harassment or bullying, I agree. It definitely is pressure, though.

B) You said it's stalking so I proved that it is not. Yes, the dictionary comment was rude and I apoogise for that but it does not negate the fact that my point still stands: grammatically, etymologically, it's not stalking :>

C) There is no problem with that.

ButterPopcorn8 wrote:

Also:

I thought it was common knowledge that you can't be rude to people, but there must be people who dreadfully lack it, because hostility is never acceptable.

- I speak for myself and others when I say that I know what this implies. I would prefer that you don't insult people of not having common knowledge.

All in all, like I said countless times before, I'm just trying to be respectful and hear out your side and possibly help out, but I don't think saying things like this will help the situation at all. Please be more respectful next time, thank you <33

And ONE last thing:

{USER IDENTIFIED. ACCESS GRANTED. WARNING: UNAUTHORIZED USERS MUST NOT PROCEED PAST THIS MESSAGE}

This one is my message, and it's worded that way for the storyline that the forum is based in, it's not to serve as another anti-stalking message just wanted to clear that up

A) Okay, woah, that was out of order, I really do apologise.

B) It makes sense that the theme for the forum is there in the message, but personally I feel like the theme of the story should be limited to the story-related things. A notice is more like there to stop people from viewing, so people might not understand the capital letters and sense of being told what to do and when to do it if they're discouraged from viewing the storyline itself. So it might not make sense to people. I think the message is not hostile, I just have a sort of uneasiness about them having to leave and being told what to do. I don't know if this is very clear but am hoping it is

Goodbye,
Mira <3