My question is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling. After all, if you need a high ceiling, why not use Snap! (which has almost the same floor but very different ceiling) instead? For example, these blocks:

([sin v] of (9))
([cos v] of (9))
([tan v] of (9))

and in some cases this block (i.e. used for more than highscores):

(☁ score)

are “ceiling” blocks (tougher to use), meanwhile these blocks:

change [ v] by (0)
next costume

are “floor” blocks (you can pretty easily work around them).
(No, I am not talking about the actual ceiling and floor blocks)
So anyway, my question, once again, is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling even though it's a beginner's platform meant to be moved on from?

who said it's meant to be moved on from? some people who have literal jobs in computer programming (like jvvg im pretty sure?) still use scratch.
plus, removing these blocks would probs break alot of projects and especially cloud variables.
higher ceiling gives an opportunity to more advanced people to make projects that are up to their pace or within it, right?

Because we still want multiplayer cloud projects, not just click the cat

Because they still want complex projects to be made, not just simple ones

scratch doesn't have a high ceiling, i'd say it's pretty low in fact. they want to cater to beginners as well as people who wish to use complex math, which is okay.

breakfast_for_dinner wrote:

scratch doesn't have a high ceiling, i'd say it's pretty low in fact. they want to cater to beginners as well as people who wish to use complex math, which is okay.

isnt their thing “low floor, wide walls, high ceiling” so i'd say its kind of a high ceiling considering the stuff ppl make with like scratchattach n stuff

hydrofungus wrote:

Because we still want multiplayer cloud projects, not just click the cat

Because they still want complex projects to be made, not just simple ones

But wouldn't it decrease remixability?

starlightsparker wrote:

who said it's meant to be moved on from? some people who have literal jobs in computer programming (like jvvg im pretty sure?) still use scratch.
higher ceiling gives an opportunity to more advanced people to make projects that are up to their pace or within it, right?

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

starlightsparker wrote:

plus, removing these blocks would probs break a lot of projects and especially cloud variables.

I'm asking why they were added in the first place, not why they shouldn't be removed.

thecreatorofuntv wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

who said it's meant to be moved on from? some people who have literal jobs in computer programming (like jvvg im pretty sure?) still use scratch.
higher ceiling gives an opportunity to more advanced people to make projects that are up to their pace or within it, right?

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

woah woah, what? *allowed*???? i wouldnt use that word, why would older people not be allowed, isnt st all adults lol?? i dont think the reason scratch isnt banning over-18s is because they can teach others, isnt it because, well, why would they do that??

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

ban? what about banning?

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

hydrofungus wrote:

Because we still want multiplayer cloud projects, not just click the cat

Because they still want complex projects to be made, not just simple ones

But wouldn't it decrease remixability?

There are many ways to do with a remix. You don’t need to be a high level programmer to remix complex projects. Like for example, i could remix @Griffpatch’s multiplayer cloud games (as a person who probably knows more about html/css more than scratch now), but i don’t change the code but the skins instead, for example.

starlightsparker wrote:

thecreatorofuntv wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

who said it's meant to be moved on from? some people who have literal jobs in computer programming (like jvvg im pretty sure?) still use scratch.
higher ceiling gives an opportunity to more advanced people to make projects that are up to their pace or within it, right?

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

woah woah, what? *allowed*???? i wouldnt use that word, why would older people not be allowed, isnt st all adults lol?? i dont think the reason scratch isnt banning over-18s is because they can teach others, isnt it because, well, why would they do that??

But Scratch Team is different. I meant BESIDES Scratch Team.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

thecreatorofuntv wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

who said it's meant to be moved on from? some people who have literal jobs in computer programming (like jvvg im pretty sure?) still use scratch.
higher ceiling gives an opportunity to more advanced people to make projects that are up to their pace or within it, right?

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

woah woah, what? *allowed*???? i wouldnt use that word, why would older people not be allowed, isnt st all adults lol?? i dont think the reason scratch isnt banning over-18s is because they can teach others, isnt it because, well, why would they do that??

But Scratch Team is different. I meant BESIDES Scratch Team.

i'm confused. adults are allowed to use the scratch website.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

starlightsparker wrote:

plus, removing these blocks would probs break a lot of projects and especially cloud variables.

I'm asking why they were added in the first place, not why they shouldn't be removed.

They simply want complex projects to be able to exist on scratch, thats about it.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

hydrofungus wrote:

Because we still want multiplayer cloud projects, not just click the cat

Because they still want complex projects to be made, not just simple ones

But wouldn't it decrease remixability?

Yes, but prioritizing remixing over actual projects is kinda weird. Cant remix something that never could've existed in the first place
also adds more remixing possibilities with more ways to change the project.

breakfast_for_dinner wrote:

they want to cater to beginners as well as people who wish to use complex math, which is okay.

This is basically just it

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

My question is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling. After all, if you need a high ceiling, why not use Snap!

scratch and snap aren't associated though, it's like comparing google to bing. Why should scratch base their goals around what a different site is doing
(scratch was made before snap, so what's your point?)

doggy_boi1 wrote:

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

My question is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling. After all, if you need a high ceiling, why not use Snap!

scratch and snap aren't associated though, it's like comparing google to bing. Why should scratch base their goals around what a different site is doing
(scratch was made before snap, so what's your point?)

But they are, as Snap! was once a modification of Scratch made for this essay by @bharvey about how just 7 blocks and 1 button could create everything necessary for Scratchers (before it was rewritten in JavaScript and rebranded because it was clear it wasn't going to be added for complexity.) Also, explain how they are not associated they got the rights to use Alonzo as their mascot when Alonzo is just a slightly edited Gobo and this exists:

Terms Of Use wrote:

5.4 The Scratch name, Scratch logo, Scratch Day logo, Scratch Cat, and Gobo are Trademarks owned by the Scratch Team. The MIT name and logo are Trademarks owned by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Unless you are licensed by Scratch under a specific licensing program or agreement, you may not use these logos to label, promote, or endorse any product or service. You may use the Scratch Logo to refer to the Scratch website and programming language.

which means they are likely affiliated with Scratch (also @jens is a former Scratch Team member.)

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

which means [Snap! is] likely affiliated with Scratch (also @jens is a former Scratch Team member.)

nope, snap! is not affiliated with scratch.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

doggy_boi1 wrote:

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

My question is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling. After all, if you need a high ceiling, why not use Snap!

scratch and snap aren't associated though, it's like comparing google to bing. Why should scratch base their goals around what a different site is doing
(scratch was made before snap, so what's your point?)

But they are, as Snap! was once a modification of Scratch made for this essay by @bharvey about how just 7 blocks and 1 button could create everything necessary for Scratchers (before it was rewritten in JavaScript and rebranded because it was clear it wasn't going to be added for complexity.) Also, explain how they are not associated they got the rights to use Alonzo as their mascot when Alonzo is just a slightly edited Gobo and this exists:

Terms Of Use wrote:

5.4 The Scratch name, Scratch logo, Scratch Day logo, Scratch Cat, and Gobo are Trademarks owned by the Scratch Team. The MIT name and logo are Trademarks owned by the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Unless you are licensed by Scratch under a specific licensing program or agreement, you may not use these logos to label, promote, or endorse any product or service. You may use the Scratch Logo to refer to the Scratch website and programming language.

which means they are likely affiliated with Scratch (also @jens is a former Scratch Team member.)

scratch was made before snap.
And i think you misunderstood. They aren't affiliated like google and youtube, they just have a history together
I already told you why “just use snap” wasn't considered (you said it yourself, snap was built off of scratch), and i already told you why scratch wants a high ceiling. what more do you want me to tell you
feels like you're trying to prove why scratch shouldn't be this way versus seeking out an answer to your actual question

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

I'm pretty sure it was mostly meant to be moved on from. The reason why those people are allowed is to teach others how to program (otherwise Scratch wouldn't exist since it would ban the people who could create Scratch)

You are allowed to use Scratch if you are an adult or an older teen, just you cannot break the community guidelines or you know what.
Also, what about people who know more complex stuff, but are younger?

And why does Snap! have a high ceiling, but a floor in many places as low as Scratch 1.4?

Trigonometry is NOT COMPLICATED. Do not use it as an example of something complex; it isn't.

Seriously, it's just some division related to right triangles that happens to be able to give you angle measures if used correctly.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

So anyway, my question, once again, is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling even though it's a beginner's platform meant to be moved on from?

Because it's cool to see complex things. That's really all there is to it.

breakfast_for_dinner wrote:

scratch doesn't have a high ceiling, i'd say it's pretty low in fact. they want to cater to beginners as well as people who wish to use complex math, which is okay.

Of course it does. If you see very complicated projects on Scratch, that's the high ceiling at work. The “high ceiling” philosophy means that it should be possible (but not necessarily easy) to make complex projects on Scratch.

Za-Chary wrote:

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

So anyway, my question, once again, is why Scratch strives for a high ceiling even though it's a beginner's platform meant to be moved on from?

Because it's cool to see complex things. That's really all there is to it.

I was just asking because it seems like remix-ability would be an issue for complex projects.

BigNate469 wrote:

Trigonometry is NOT COMPLICATED. Do not use it as an example of something complex; it isn't.

But high school students fear it, so it seems like it is

BigNate469 wrote:

Seriously, it's just some division related to right triangles that happens to be able to give you angle measures if used correctly.

Isn't trigonometry about creating the triangle first? If not, I missed the whole point and will close this topic. If so, then that is the complex part.

TheCreatorOfUnTV wrote:

BigNate469 wrote:

Trigonometry is NOT COMPLICATED. Do not use it as an example of something complex; it isn't.

But high school students fear it, so it seems like it is

Just because they fear them doesn’t make it universally considered “hard”. I’m scared of fractions (don’t ask why), but are they deemed “hard”? If it is, why do they teach those stuff in elementary school?