crosspoint1 wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

crosspoint1 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

I honestly don't care. I always think kris as a guy. same goes with frisk and chara is a female. just my personal thoughts.

I view Kris as male/non-binary, and Frisk+Chara as non-binary/gender fluid because all the characters are supposed to represent you lol

Okay, yeah that make since, but I still view chara as a girl. I don't know why, she just looks like one.

That's reasonable lol

JTanner2026 wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Guys I still haven't beaten spangleton I've died literally every time even with the mannequin sobbing

are you shooting at his attacks

Yes

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

crosspoint1 wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

crosspoint1 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

I honestly don't care. I always think kris as a guy. same goes with frisk and chara is a female. just my personal thoughts.

I view Kris as male/non-binary, and Frisk+Chara as non-binary/gender fluid because all the characters are supposed to represent you lol

Okay, yeah that make since, but I still view chara as a girl. I don't know why, she just looks like one.

yeah pretty much

Any Deltarune conspiracy theorists here?

Signature? Uhh-

TheAngelLives?

set pen color to [#62af81]

TheAngelLives wrote:

Any Deltarune conspiracy theorists here?

Signature? Uhh-

TheAngelLives?

set pen color to [#62af81]

I got one- Susie is your next door neighbor

TheAngelLives wrote:

Any Deltarune conspiracy theorists here?

Signature? Uhh-

TheAngelLives?

set pen color to [#62af81]

you can change your signature on the main discussion forums page

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's hard to explain, but you basically wait an hour at this one tree
reddit guide
it's a little inconsistent though>

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's hard to explain, but you basically wait an hour at this one tree
reddit guide
it's a little inconsistent though>

. . . Bro I'm a minor I can't even use reddit-

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's hard to explain, but you basically wait an hour at this one tree
reddit guide
it's a little inconsistent though>

. . . Bro I'm a minor I can't even use reddit-

lmao imagine

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's hard to explain, but you basically wait an hour at this one tree
reddit guide
it's a little inconsistent though>

. . . Bro I'm a minor I can't even use reddit-

me who's also a minor:

JTanner2026 wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

JTanner2026 wrote:

YanagiJuniper wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

cs462323 wrote:

snip
im also making a fangame too..,,,, its where kris has a evil clone of himself and that clone's specific task is to destroy. in the game, its a bossfight against berdly.

assuming kris' gender is cringe
kris is consistently referred to with they/them pronouns

correcting people when they assume kris's gender is cringe and also you're actually wrong about that in some ways>
if you aren't familiar with the really obnoxious to pull off extra scene in the switch version, there is actually a dialogue option in which ralsei will say “wait kris is gay too”, and then ralsei correcting himself for a variety of reasons, implying kris is assigned male at birth at the very least>

wait what


(i only have the switch version and i have never heard of this)

Same bro I didn't even know-

tht's shocking

How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's hard to explain, but you basically wait an hour at this one tree
reddit guide
it's a little inconsistent though>

. . . Bro I'm a minor I can't even use reddit-

me who's also a minor:

i'm also a minor it's not a big deal they let thirteen year olds on there

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's not real. it was a fake video that someone made - i don't think their intentions were malicious. the video claimed that you had to wait for an hour at the first fruit tree in the game and then you could collect the “rainbow fruit”, with some dialogue from ralsei. however, people have datamined the switch version and found no new dialogue.

spoilers for deltarune and undertale below :)

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
I view Kris as male/non-binary, and Frisk+Chara as non-binary/gender fluid because all the characters are supposed to represent you lol

setting aside the gender stuff for a second, that's not necessarily true. you specifically don't play as kris in deltarune - you control the red soul which allows you to control kris' actions for the majority of the game, but kris is still able to move without your control when they rip out the soul, and the dialogue with spamton neo uses some pretty obvious symbolism of puppets on strings, referring to both himself, but also kris (and to a certain extent the rest of the party).

similarly in undertale, if you open the game after completing the true pacifist route, flowey addresses you. not frisk, not chara, you, as in the player. he warns you not to ruin things for frisk by resetting. similarly, chara addresses the player at the end of the genocide route and, should you choose to decline their offer, gets closer and closer to the screen before attacking. the characters are aware of the players influence, and although you control frisk's actions most of the time (they take some actions autonomously, such as telling asriel their name) you aren't meant to be them. the game doesn't ask you what your name is, it asks you to name the fallen child, and so on.

tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's not real. it was a fake video that someone made - i don't think their intentions were malicious. the video claimed that you had to wait for an hour at the first fruit tree in the game and then you could collect the “rainbow fruit”, with some dialogue from ralsei. however, people have datamined the switch version and found no new dialogue.

spoilers for deltarune and undertale below :)

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
I view Kris as male/non-binary, and Frisk+Chara as non-binary/gender fluid because all the characters are supposed to represent you lol

setting aside the gender stuff for a second, that's not necessarily true. you specifically don't play as kris in deltarune - you control the red soul which allows you to control kris' actions for the majority of the game, but kris is still able to move without your control when they rip out the soul, and the dialogue with spamton neo uses some pretty obvious symbolism of puppets on strings, referring to both himself, but also kris (and to a certain extent the rest of the party).

similarly in undertale, if you open the game after completing the true pacifist route, flowey addresses you. not frisk, not chara, you, as in the player. he warns you not to ruin things for frisk by resetting. similarly, chara addresses the player at the end of the genocide route and, should you choose to decline their offer, gets closer and closer to the screen before attacking. the characters are aware of the players influence, and although you control frisk's actions most of the time (they take some actions autonomously, such as telling asriel their name) you aren't meant to be them. the game doesn't ask you what your name is, it asks you to name the fallen child, and so on.

tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

there's a good chance they're all non binary and trans anyways

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
How do you get this scene? I gotta try to get it otherwise you gotta be lying man

it's not real. it was a fake video that someone made - i don't think their intentions were malicious. the video claimed that you had to wait for an hour at the first fruit tree in the game and then you could collect the “rainbow fruit”, with some dialogue from ralsei. however, people have datamined the switch version and found no new dialogue.

spoilers for deltarune and undertale below :)

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

snip
I view Kris as male/non-binary, and Frisk+Chara as non-binary/gender fluid because all the characters are supposed to represent you lol

setting aside the gender stuff for a second, that's not necessarily true. you specifically don't play as kris in deltarune - you control the red soul which allows you to control kris' actions for the majority of the game, but kris is still able to move without your control when they rip out the soul, and the dialogue with spamton neo uses some pretty obvious symbolism of puppets on strings, referring to both himself, but also kris (and to a certain extent the rest of the party).

similarly in undertale, if you open the game after completing the true pacifist route, flowey addresses you. not frisk, not chara, you, as in the player. he warns you not to ruin things for frisk by resetting. similarly, chara addresses the player at the end of the genocide route and, should you choose to decline their offer, gets closer and closer to the screen before attacking. the characters are aware of the players influence, and although you control frisk's actions most of the time (they take some actions autonomously, such as telling asriel their name) you aren't meant to be them. the game doesn't ask you what your name is, it asks you to name the fallen child, and so on.

tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

But their initial purpose is to represent you. There's gotta be some form of player in the world whether it be an existing character, a narrator, or something else. Frisk's design is meant to represent you, the player, from their overall neutral look, from yellow skin to no in game voice, it's meant to be an insert for you. Kris and Chara, however, the characters definitely have a separate purpose. Kris had a life before you came in, and they're aware of you, from the fact that they remove their own soul to gain control. Chara, though, we never controlled like the others. But we did to an extent, in the gen route of Undertale. Chara is the most likely to not be meant to represent you. About the Kris thing: if we played the red soul in both games (assuming that you're connecting our role as player to the soul), why wasn't Frisk capable of getting rid of us? Did they not want to? Were they unaware? Were they scared? Or were they meant to be the puppet? (But this is just a theory, a game theory!)

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

snip
tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

But their initial purpose is to represent you. There's gotta be some form of player in the world whether it be an existing character, a narrator, or something else. Frisk's design is meant to represent you, the player, from their overall neutral look, from yellow skin to no in game voice, it's meant to be an insert for you. Kris and Chara, however, the characters definitely have a separate purpose. Kris had a life before you came in, and they're aware of you, from the fact that they remove their own soul to gain control. Chara, though, we never controlled like the others. But we did to an extent, in the gen route of Undertale. Chara is the most likely to not be meant to represent you. About the Kris thing: if we played the red soul in both games (assuming that you're connecting our role as player to the soul), why wasn't Frisk capable of getting rid of us? Did they not want to? Were they unaware? Were they scared? Or were they meant to be the puppet? (But this is just a theory, a game theory!)

you make a good point, although you could argue by the same logic that characters like Link from Legend of Zelda or Red from Pokémon are enby/genderfluid, since they originally fulfilled a similar purpose as a stand-in for the player. that said i understand how those situations are different, especially since those characters have a longer history and have since made appearances in roles where they aren't controlled by the player.

as for the soul thing, it's my personal headcanon that the soul we control in Undertale and Deltarune is the same. Chara tells us at the end of the genocide route that our human soul is what brought them back to life, and i've already explained why i believe they're speaking to the player rather than Frisk. this connection also explains why Toby Fox wanted people to play Undertale before playing Deltarune. as for why Frisk seems unable to fight back against our control, that's up to debate. you could argue that they just don't have enough Determination to wrestle control from the player, unlike Kris. there's not much evidence either way for this, although it's worth noting that when you first save in Deltarune, you overwrite Kris' save file, meaning that before the player's arrival Kris already had enough Determination to control the timeline, assuming that saving works in a similar way in Deltarune's world as it does in Undertale. or, like you said, maybe Frisk is fine with your actions and doesn't have any reason to fight back - you're guiding them to their destination, after all.

as for the how and why of our soul moving from the Undertale universe to Deltarune, it's unclear. it's heavily implied that the character speaking to you in the first section of the Goner Creator is Gaster, what with the all caps text (albeit not in wingdings as we see in Undertale), his mannerisms, and the significance of the word “Goner”; the only other time we see this word is the Goner Kid, who, like all Fun events, seems to be linked to Gaster in some way. my theory is that when Gaster fell into the Core, he somehow ended up in the Deltarune universe where he continued experimenting. i think Gaster is the one responsible for driving both Jevil and Spamton mad, presumably by showing them that the world they live in isn't real - it's just a game. one thing to note here is that in the official Japanese translation of Deltarune, the character speaking to you at the end of the Goner Creator uses the same formal language that Chara does in Undertale's Japanese translation. i'm not super knowledgeable about the Japanese versions of these games, but i believe Chara is the only character in Undertale to speak like this.

i got into a lot of theory-crafting stuff towards the end there, sorry if it's a bit tangential. if you're only replying to a specific part of this post it might be a good idea to snip it to just the relevant stuff :)

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

snip
tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

But their initial purpose is to represent you. There's gotta be some form of player in the world whether it be an existing character, a narrator, or something else. Frisk's design is meant to represent you, the player, from their overall neutral look, from yellow skin to no in game voice, it's meant to be an insert for you. Kris and Chara, however, the characters definitely have a separate purpose. Kris had a life before you came in, and they're aware of you, from the fact that they remove their own soul to gain control. Chara, though, we never controlled like the others. But we did to an extent, in the gen route of Undertale. Chara is the most likely to not be meant to represent you. About the Kris thing: if we played the red soul in both games (assuming that you're connecting our role as player to the soul), why wasn't Frisk capable of getting rid of us? Did they not want to? Were they unaware? Were they scared? Or were they meant to be the puppet? (But this is just a theory, a game theory!)

you make a good point, although you could argue by the same logic that characters like Link from Legend of Zelda or Red from Pokémon are enby/genderfluid, since they originally fulfilled a similar purpose as a stand-in for the player. that said i understand how those situations are different, especially since those characters have a longer history and have since made appearances in roles where they aren't controlled by the player.

as for the soul thing, it's my personal headcanon that the soul we control in Undertale and Deltarune is the same. Chara tells us at the end of the genocide route that our human soul is what brought them back to life, and i've already explained why i believe they're speaking to the player rather than Frisk. this connection also explains why Toby Fox wanted people to play Undertale before playing Deltarune. as for why Frisk seems unable to fight back against our control, that's up to debate. you could argue that they just don't have enough Determination to wrestle control from the player, unlike Kris. there's not much evidence either way for this, although it's worth noting that when you first save in Deltarune, you overwrite Kris' save file, meaning that before the player's arrival Kris already had enough Determination to control the timeline, assuming that saving works in a similar way in Deltarune's world as it does in Undertale. or, like you said, maybe Frisk is fine with your actions and doesn't have any reason to fight back - you're guiding them to their destination, after all.

as for the how and why of our soul moving from the Undertale universe to Deltarune, it's unclear. it's heavily implied that the character speaking to you in the first section of the Goner Creator is Gaster, what with the all caps text (albeit not in wingdings as we see in Undertale), his mannerisms, and the significance of the word “Goner”; the only other time we see this word is the Goner Kid, who, like all Fun events, seems to be linked to Gaster in some way. my theory is that when Gaster fell into the Core, he somehow ended up in the Deltarune universe where he continued experimenting. i think Gaster is the one responsible for driving both Jevil and Spamton mad, presumably by showing them that the world they live in isn't real - it's just a game. one thing to note here is that in the official Japanese translation of Deltarune, the character speaking to you at the end of the Goner Creator uses the same formal language that Chara does in Undertale's Japanese translation. i'm not super knowledgeable about the Japanese versions of these games, but i believe Chara is the only character in Undertale to speak like this.

i got into a lot of theory-crafting stuff towards the end there, sorry if it's a bit tangential. if you're only replying to a specific part of this post it might be a good idea to snip it to just the relevant stuff :)

I like your theories. I also think that the one we talk to at the start of Deltarune is in fact gaster from the way the “voice” acts, and the several implications of gaster throughout the story (including the man behind the tree who gifts an egg.), I can't confirm anything about the Japanese versions of the games because I have never played either one. The idea that Gaster drove Spamton and Jevil insane is quite likely because Jevil is clearly aware of this game world, and the phone in spamton's shop that also rings occasionally. Not to mention, we still don't know what's in the secret bunker.

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

snip
tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

But their initial purpose is to represent you. There's gotta be some form of player in the world whether it be an existing character, a narrator, or something else. Frisk's design is meant to represent you, the player, from their overall neutral look, from yellow skin to no in game voice, it's meant to be an insert for you. Kris and Chara, however, the characters definitely have a separate purpose. Kris had a life before you came in, and they're aware of you, from the fact that they remove their own soul to gain control. Chara, though, we never controlled like the others. But we did to an extent, in the gen route of Undertale. Chara is the most likely to not be meant to represent you. About the Kris thing: if we played the red soul in both games (assuming that you're connecting our role as player to the soul), why wasn't Frisk capable of getting rid of us? Did they not want to? Were they unaware? Were they scared? Or were they meant to be the puppet? (But this is just a theory, a game theory!)

snip
as for the soul thing, it's my personal headcanon that the soul we control in Undertale and Deltarune is the same. Chara tells us at the end of the genocide route that our human soul is what brought them back to life, and i've already explained why i believe they're speaking to the player rather than Frisk. this connection also explains why Toby Fox wanted people to play Undertale before playing Deltarune. as for why Frisk seems unable to fight back against our control, that's up to debate. you could argue that they just don't have enough Determination to wrestle control from the player, unlike Kris. there's not much evidence either way for this, although it's worth noting that when you first save in Deltarune, you overwrite Kris' save file, meaning that before the player's arrival Kris already had enough Determination to control the timeline, assuming that saving works in a similar way in Deltarune's world as it does in Undertale. or, like you said, maybe Frisk is fine with your actions and doesn't have any reason to fight back - you're guiding them to their destination, after all.

as for the how and why of our soul moving from the Undertale universe to Deltarune, it's unclear. it's heavily implied that the character speaking to you in the first section of the Goner Creator is Gaster, what with the all caps text (albeit not in wingdings as we see in Undertale), his mannerisms, and the significance of the word “Goner”; the only other time we see this word is the Goner Kid, who, like all Fun events, seems to be linked to Gaster in some way. my theory is that when Gaster fell into the Core, he somehow ended up in the Deltarune universe where he continued experimenting. i think Gaster is the one responsible for driving both Jevil and Spamton mad, presumably by showing them that the world they live in isn't real - it's just a game. one thing to note here is that in the official Japanese translation of Deltarune, the character speaking to you at the end of the Goner Creator uses the same formal language that Chara does in Undertale's Japanese translation. i'm not super knowledgeable about the Japanese versions of these games, but i believe Chara is the only character in Undertale to speak like this.

i got into a lot of theory-crafting stuff towards the end there, sorry if it's a bit tangential. if you're only replying to a specific part of this post it might be a good idea to snip it to just the relevant stuff :)

I like your theories. I also think that the one we talk to at the start of Deltarune is in fact gaster from the way the “voice” acts, and the several implications of gaster throughout the story (including the man behind the tree who gifts an egg.), I can't confirm anything about the Japanese versions of the games because I have never played either one. The idea that Gaster drove Spamton and Jevil insane is quite likely because Jevil is clearly aware of this game world, and the phone in spamton's shop that also rings occasionally. Not to mention, we still don't know what's in the secret bunker.

yeah. one detail that i noticed with Spamton is that if you go back to the alley after beating Spamton NEO, the Addisons are there mourning. one of them, when spoken to, talks about how when Spamton got kicked out of the castle he left the phone behind. the Addison in question listened to the receiver, but “There was nothing but garbage noise.” this is notable since the sound that plays when attempting to use the Cell Phone in the Dark World is a sound effect which is associated with Gaster, with the text reading “It's nothing but garbage noise.” also, something that i just noticed when checking the exact wording of these two lines is that while the preceeding line, “(You tried to call on the Cell Phone.)” is in brackets, the line about garbage noise isn't. this doesn't necessarily mean anything since a lot of non-spoken lines don't have brackets, but it's a weird choice

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

--Whxsp_Artzz-- wrote:

Auroura_WoIf wrote:

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tldr; deltarune and undertale go to great lengths to distinguish the player - who does exist in the meta-narrative - from the character whose actions you control.

But their initial purpose is to represent you. There's gotta be some form of player in the world whether it be an existing character, a narrator, or something else. Frisk's design is meant to represent you, the player, from their overall neutral look, from yellow skin to no in game voice, it's meant to be an insert for you. Kris and Chara, however, the characters definitely have a separate purpose. Kris had a life before you came in, and they're aware of you, from the fact that they remove their own soul to gain control. Chara, though, we never controlled like the others. But we did to an extent, in the gen route of Undertale. Chara is the most likely to not be meant to represent you. About the Kris thing: if we played the red soul in both games (assuming that you're connecting our role as player to the soul), why wasn't Frisk capable of getting rid of us? Did they not want to? Were they unaware? Were they scared? Or were they meant to be the puppet? (But this is just a theory, a game theory!)

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as for the soul thing, it's my personal headcanon that the soul we control in Undertale and Deltarune is the same. Chara tells us at the end of the genocide route that our human soul is what brought them back to life, and i've already explained why i believe they're speaking to the player rather than Frisk. this connection also explains why Toby Fox wanted people to play Undertale before playing Deltarune. as for why Frisk seems unable to fight back against our control, that's up to debate. you could argue that they just don't have enough Determination to wrestle control from the player, unlike Kris. there's not much evidence either way for this, although it's worth noting that when you first save in Deltarune, you overwrite Kris' save file, meaning that before the player's arrival Kris already had enough Determination to control the timeline, assuming that saving works in a similar way in Deltarune's world as it does in Undertale. or, like you said, maybe Frisk is fine with your actions and doesn't have any reason to fight back - you're guiding them to their destination, after all.

as for the how and why of our soul moving from the Undertale universe to Deltarune, it's unclear. it's heavily implied that the character speaking to you in the first section of the Goner Creator is Gaster, what with the all caps text (albeit not in wingdings as we see in Undertale), his mannerisms, and the significance of the word “Goner”; the only other time we see this word is the Goner Kid, who, like all Fun events, seems to be linked to Gaster in some way. my theory is that when Gaster fell into the Core, he somehow ended up in the Deltarune universe where he continued experimenting. i think Gaster is the one responsible for driving both Jevil and Spamton mad, presumably by showing them that the world they live in isn't real - it's just a game. one thing to note here is that in the official Japanese translation of Deltarune, the character speaking to you at the end of the Goner Creator uses the same formal language that Chara does in Undertale's Japanese translation. i'm not super knowledgeable about the Japanese versions of these games, but i believe Chara is the only character in Undertale to speak like this.

i got into a lot of theory-crafting stuff towards the end there, sorry if it's a bit tangential. if you're only replying to a specific part of this post it might be a good idea to snip it to just the relevant stuff :)

I like your theories. I also think that the one we talk to at the start of Deltarune is in fact gaster from the way the “voice” acts, and the several implications of gaster throughout the story (including the man behind the tree who gifts an egg.), I can't confirm anything about the Japanese versions of the games because I have never played either one. The idea that Gaster drove Spamton and Jevil insane is quite likely because Jevil is clearly aware of this game world, and the phone in spamton's shop that also rings occasionally. Not to mention, we still don't know what's in the secret bunker.

yeah. one detail that i noticed with Spamton is that if you go back to the alley after beating Spamton NEO, the Addisons are there mourning. one of them, when spoken to, talks about how when Spamton got kicked out of the castle he left the phone behind. the Addison in question listened to the receiver, but “There was nothing but garbage noise.” this is notable since the sound that plays when attempting to use the Cell Phone in the Dark World is a sound effect which is associated with Gaster, with the text reading “It's nothing but garbage noise.” also, something that i just noticed when checking the exact wording of these two lines is that while the preceeding line, “(You tried to call on the Cell Phone.)” is in brackets, the line about garbage noise isn't. this doesn't necessarily mean anything since a lot of non-spoken lines don't have brackets, but it's a weird choice

Both games make a lot of weird choices, one I can think of is: in Undertale, there's a common theme of movement in bosses showing their difficulty (sans barely moves but is the strongest boss.. but papyrus doesn't move at all in his fight) and in Deltarune, it seems like the more it moves, the stronger it is (take Spamton for example, everything on his sprite moves). There's also a theory out there that Spamton used to be like the Addisons, and something like a virus (which is obvious), changed him, corrupted him.