sharkode wrote:

No support,

No longer d saying “support” or “no support” really benefits forums as a whole, since if you don't see anyone saying it if you're new, you don't think it has much significance. Doing this causes a ripple effect of:

-User sees almost nobody is saying “support” or “no support” so it must be irrelevant

But the support convention isn't a bad thing, I'll explain why, saying support and no support doesn't really do much harm, they are easy for identifying sides in a discussion without having to read all the posts, and could be used to state your opinion more clearly, I know the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters to some degree.

Indeed, but the support convention doesn't do much help either.

sharkode wrote:

-Fewer users use the term unconstructively

I think we are too late to stop this, a few years ago people say support without reasonings, when a newbie sees this they will do it too, when they does, we could just tell them don't say support without saying their reason, which means it's not a big problem.

No, we are not too late to stop it. All we have to do is start discouraging its use. Well, that or let people know not to post support and no support unconstructively.

sharkode wrote:

-Reduced supporter lists

Although supporter lists can be annoying, I don't really see any major harm in having them

Supporter lists also have nothing going for them, and they tend to end up just being another thing to scroll through.

sharkode wrote:

I'm stating my stance but this post is still constructive, I just thinks there's both pros and cons to the support convention, but I think the pros outweighs the cons, just my opinion.

I disagree that the pros outwiegh the cons. I think that they balance out.

The goal of the suggestions forum is not to only agree/disagree, but mainly to give feedback on suggestions.
I feel like if we did get rid of it though, many would be mad. I think it's best left to people to decide what they want to do for now.

sharkode wrote:

-Reduced supporter lists

Although supporter lists can be annoying, I don't really see any major harm in having them

The idea of showing support lists (or support counters) follows the philosophy that the majority/minority of the people who agree/disagree with the suggestion determines if the suggestion will be implemented by the Scratch Team. It may also serve to peer pressure other users or to alter their thoughts on a suggestion, by the majority of people who support it. That is not true; it is the suggestion itself that determines if it will be implemented or not. Personally, why users should publically say their thoughts on a suggestion is only for showing pros and/or cons that the OP or other users hasn't covered, or considered yet. Therefore, in conclusion, I see putting lists of who supports or not, as trivial.

The support convention is unnecessary, can be discouraging with “no support”, discourages feedback and instead encourages black and white views. Firstly, not having the support convention makes your post more flexible as you do not have to decide if you support/semi support/no support and it is dead weight - if you are giving a stance on a suggestion than should be obvious if your post is constructive.

Secondly, no support already puts the post in a negative tone whilst other negative stance posts without “no support” does not or does not put it in a more negative tone than no support.

Thirdly, it encourages “Black and white views”. People that use the support convention normally only look at the pros and cons of a suggestion and not how to improve it.

EatNYeet wrote:

-User sees almost nobody is saying “support” or “no support” so it must be irrelevant
-Fewer users use the term unconstructively
-Reduced supporter lists
-Encourages users to be more constructive and clear in stating their opinion in other ways

This is a great point of what could happen if the suggestions community works together to stamp out the support convention. This is a comparison of what is happening with the support convention:

• User sees “pro 1000+” post forumer make a post saying “support” in 2014
  
• User thinks this is acceptable and does this.
  
• User gets told this is unconstructive by spammy posts that most of the time adds nothing to the conversation
  
• User then thinks a genetic reason that has been talked to death and “support” is a constructive post. “It uses forum ettique and has a reasoning!” I'm “forum helper worthy!”
  

han614698 wrote:

(#94)
No support, I don't think that this breaks the terms of use or community guidelines. I agree that people should have reasons, but +1, -1, Support, No Support should not be against the rules.

It is not making it “against the rules” it is discouraging it, and it is the community's job to discourage the convention by discouraging it in your signature, making studios about the matter and other stuff.

sharkode wrote:

No it's not, new forumers or not, if you get mad because people isn't supporting your suggestion then it's entirely your fault, the world doesn't revolve around you and you shouldn't be expecting it to be doing so.

Yes, it is, putting anything in a very negative tone, which no support always does, can be very discouraging to anyone so it is not that users fault. Also this

sharkode wrote:

saying support and no support doesn't really do much harm

No support does, see above

sharkode wrote:

they are easy for identifying sides in a discussion without having to read all the posts

Yeah… That is a negative. The OP should actually take in the reasoning instead of identifying the user's stance on a suggestion.

sharkode wrote:

You can be both constructive and state your opinions in a post, this one is an example.

Yeah, it is a shame you said the discouraging “no support” at the start of the post, if you had not said that the post would have been even better.

Maybe a warning when a user's post contains “Support”? This could stop showing up after a certain number of times.

This makes sense, but there isn't any harm in saying support or no support as long as you emphasize why.

Yellowsheep43 wrote:

Maybe a warning when a user's post contains “Support”? This could stop showing up after a certain number of times.

I'd want to say no to that, as this is more of a community thing rather than something the moderators should do.

sharkode wrote:

“No support” is very unfriendly to new forumers, and it ends up causing them to have an incorrect view on the forums.

No it's not, new forumers or not, if you get mad because people isn't supporting your suggestion then it's entirely your fault, the world doesn't revolve around you and you shouldn't be expecting it to be doing so.

Last I checked, you alone don't speak for the vast diversity in mindsets.

When you're new to the forums, you don't exactly know what “support” or “no support” really means. A lot of users are young, and they may not quite understand how “no support” doesn't mean “I hate this.” While you and I have an educated view on the forums, they probably don't, so to get negative feedback on your first time trying something can be upsetting.

sharkode wrote:

No longer d saying “support” or “no support” really benefits forums as a whole, since if you don't see anyone saying it if you're new, you don't think it has much significance. Doing this causes a ripple effect of:

-User sees almost nobody is saying “support” or “no support” so it must be irrelevant

But the support convention isn't a bad thing, I'll explain why, saying support and no support doesn't really do much harm, they are easy for identifying sides in a discussion without having to read all the posts, and could be used to state your opinion more clearly, I know the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters to some degree.

If you're not going to actually read the reasoning behind a post, there's not much point to it at all, is there? You can provide a clear view on your opinion without saying “support” or “no support.” If you're just going to skim through a post, see “support/no support,” and then move on to the next one, that tells you nothing. You don't see any reasoning, just a poll. Why this suggestion should be implemented. Because with it, you actually have to read the post.

sharkode wrote:

-Fewer users use the term unconstructively

I think we are too late to stop this, a few years ago people say support without reasonings, when a newbie sees this they will do it too, when they does, we could just tell them don't say support without saying their reason, which means it's not a big problem.

Sure, it already happened, but does that really mean it's not a problem that can't be fixed with new forumers going forward?

sharkode wrote:

-Reduced supporter lists

Although supporter lists can be annoying, I don't really see any major harm in having them

Aight, cool, now explain why suggestions to get rid of them exist

sharkode wrote:

-Encourages users to be more constructive and clear in stating their opinion in other ways

You can be both constructive and state your opinions in a post, this one is an example.

Guess what? You can do it without saying support or no support as well! Isn't that amazing?
okay maybe the sarcasm was a bit much sorry ;-;

sharkode wrote:

I don't know. My way of explaining things is pretty scuffed, but as you can see, I made that whole post without stating my stance. But, based on the keywords I used, it should be pretty obvious.

I'm stating my stance but this post is still constructive, I just thinks there's both pros and cons to the support convention, but I think the pros outweighs the cons, just my opinion.

It is constructive, but is it really necessary? I mean, you're contradicting a post in which the person who made it (me) clearly stated their positive stance. If you're against that, then it should be obvious what your stance is. I know I'd be able to tell without you typing “no support.”



Okay, oh gosh, 2 people already replied to your post while I was writing this….

it can be annoying to get told the same thing by multiple people, uh, sorry about that ;-;

sharkode wrote:

No support

how ironic of you to say that (i think i got the definition right, idk)

sharkode wrote:

“support” and “no support” is useful for identifying sides during a discussion or debate, and you can find how people thing about a topic without having to read all the posts

theres also something called semi support. plus, you can tell what side someone is on clearly
plus, no support can hurt many new scratcher's feelings

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

“No support” is very unfriendly to new forumers, and it ends up causing them to have an incorrect view on the forums.

No it's not, new forumers or not, if you get mad because people isn't supporting your suggestion then it's entirely your fault, the world doesn't revolve around you and you shouldn't be expecting it to be doing so.

Last I checked, you alone don't speak for the vast diversity in mindsets.

When you're new to the forums, you don't exactly know what “support” or “no support” really means. A lot of users are young, and they may not quite understand how “no support” doesn't mean “I hate this.” While you and I have an educated view on the forums, they probably don't, so to get negative feedback on your first time trying something can be upsetting.

Perhaps we could change “no support” to “oppose”, that sounded a bit more formal and less aggressive (just my opinion, you will probably not agree with me).

On negative feedback, they will learn to accept them, children or not, they must accept the fact that the world doesn't revolve around them, this may seem cruel but this is necessary. Also, according to your logic, we should also allow dupes and suggestions that violates TOLORS, as they are technically “negative feedback”.

sharkode wrote:

No longer d saying “support” or “no support” really benefits forums as a whole, since if you don't see anyone saying it if you're new, you don't think it has much significance. Doing this causes a ripple effect of:

-User sees almost nobody is saying “support” or “no support” so it must be irrelevant

But the support convention isn't a bad thing, I'll explain why, saying support and no support doesn't really do much harm, they are easy for identifying sides in a discussion without having to read all the posts, and could be used to state your opinion more clearly, I know the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters to some degree.

If you're not going to actually read the reasoning behind a post, there's not much point to it at all, is there? You can provide a clear view on your opinion without saying “support” or “no support.” If you're just going to skim through a post, see “support/no support,” and then move on to the next one, that tells you nothing. You don't see any reasoning, just a poll. Why this suggestion should be implemented. Because with it, you actually have to read the post.

sharkode wrote:

-Fewer users use the term unconstructively

I think we are too late to stop this, a few years ago people say support without reasonings, when a newbie sees this they will do it too, when they does, we could just tell them don't say support without saying their reason, which means it's not a big problem.

Sure, it already happened, but does that really mean it's not a problem that can't be fixed with new forumers going forward?

What I meant is people saying support without any reasons, when a newbie sees it they will also do similar things, but we no longer does that and we can't really change what we did back in 2010s, so getting rid of the support convention wouldn't change anything.

sharkode wrote:

-Reduced supporter lists

Although supporter lists can be annoying, I don't really see any major harm in having them

Aight, cool, now explain why suggestions to get rid of them exist

I didn't make these suggestions, go ask the owners of those topics and not me.

sharkode wrote:

-Encourages users to be more constructive and clear in stating their opinion in other ways

You can be both constructive and state your opinions in a post, this one is an example.

Guess what? You can do it without saying support or no support as well! Isn't that amazing?
okay maybe the sarcasm was a bit much sorry ;-;

I never said the only way to be constructive is to say support/no support.

sharkode wrote:

I don't know. My way of explaining things is pretty scuffed, but as you can see, I made that whole post without stating my stance. But, based on the keywords I used, it should be pretty obvious.

I'm stating my stance but this post is still constructive, I just thinks there's both pros and cons to the support convention, but I think the pros outweighs the cons, just my opinion.

It is constructive, but is it really necessary? I mean, you're contradicting a post in which the person who made it (me) clearly stated their positive stance. If you're against that, then it should be obvious what your stance is. I know I'd be able to tell without you typing “no support.”

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

dertermenter wrote:

sharkode wrote:

You can be both constructive and state your opinions in a post, this one is an example.

Yeah, it is a shame you said the discouraging “no support” at the start of the post, if you had not said that the post would have been even better.

That would just be ironic.

Even if a user is constructive after saying “support”, and adds ideas to improve the suggestion, it still makes others think the topic is a ballot box or poll in which they have to vote their opinion. At least it is better than is was years ago, most posts on a suggestion from 2014 were “support” and “+1”. However, there are occasionally a few unconstructive “support” and “no support” posts which don't add anything to improve the suggestion. I especially dislike how people say on certain suggestions “this can be abused.” and they make that their reason to not support. But, can't everything on Scratch be abused, such as projects, studios, and comments? And choosing your own image for a profile picture or studio thumbnail? People can potentially abuse these features, so that is what the report button is for.

I think that “no support” should be disallowed completely, as it has a negative tone, and most posts like this do not offer suggestions for improvement. Instead, they just downvote it as if they were voting “no” on the suggestion. Once again, posts like these make the topic seem like a ballot box, with no constructive comments on the suggestion.

However, I still feel like users still should be able to say things like “Nice idea! Maybe you can add…” or “I think this would be a good addition, however, I think that it should…” Posts like this show the person's opinions as well as being constructive, and shows the person suggesting that they like the suggestion. It also shows the Scratch Team the opinions of the community on a particular suggestion, and if the community gives good reasons on why a new block or feature should be added, the chances of it being added would be higher. They also see the different viewpoints of people on a suggestion, and can decide whether a feature should be added a certain way, or not. That way, when a feature is added, there isn't a large majority of users angry because something wasn't added, or something they didn't want was added. Of course, they can't base an addition off of opinions all of the time. The studio update for example, angered many users because of the limits. However, these limits where an important addition to combat spammy studios and users who abused the manager role. But later, they added the transferring hosts feature, which allowed another manager to take control of the studio.

Usually, the Scratch Team implements suggestions based mostly on importance and convenience, but they still listen to opinions. Of course, they can't follow everyone's opinion, but implement a suggestion if they feel like it is something that would be beneficial to the community.

sharkode wrote:

On negative feedback, they will learn to accept them, children or not, they must accept the fact that the world doesn't revolve around them, this may seem cruel but this is necessary.

Oh, it's cruel alright. “No support” has a negative tone. If you disagree with a suggestion, it's completely unnecessary to include that tone in your post. How do you expect someone to learn things when they feel like they're being hurt? Intention does not equal effect. You could mean to throw something at a wall but accidentally throw it at someone else. Your intention was to hit the wall, but the effect is that they're hurt and need help. Even if you mean to be constructive, if you come off as mean to a YOUNG PERSON and then proceed to put the blame on them thinking that the world revolves around them, they will never learn. You can apologize for coming across as mean and explain what you meant, but keeping that negativity and blaming it all on them doesn't help them learn. I don't care if you think they think the world revolves around them. If someone has a false belief of something, you explain it to them and help them learn. You don't tell them they need to fix their issues.

sharkode wrote:

I never said the only way to be constructive is to say support/no support.

Proving my point about how you don't need to say support/no support to communicate your opinion.

sharkode wrote:

Also, according to your logic, we should also allow dupes and suggestions that violates TOLORS, as they are technically “negative feedback”.

The words “duplicate” or “rejected by the people that literally moderate this website” don't have negative tones associated with them.

What you're saying doesn't even make sense. You seem to be just nitpicking even the tiniest things that are hardly associated with what I say just to contradict me.

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

I never said the only way to be constructive is to say support/no support.

Proving my point about how you don't need to say support/no support to communicate your opinion.

That still doesn't mean it should be eliminated.
Also, this discussion seems to be getting us a lots of constructive posts, which is basically a free ticket into TFH

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

It's not about being constructive or not, it's about your opinions, the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters.

magiccodegirl678 wrote:

I think that “no support” should be disallowed completely, as it has a negative tone, and most posts like this do not offer suggestions for improvement. Instead, they just downvote it as if they were voting “no” on the suggestion. Once again, posts like these make the topic seem like a ballot box, with no constructive comments on the suggestion.

Heck no! You shouldn't be expecting other people to support you all the time, and you also shouldn't get mad when they don't, the world doesn't revolve around you and you shouldn't be expecting it to, I don't think offering a suggestion for improvement is necessary as sometimes a suggestion is just bad and it would be bad if it was implemented, even if it was modified to make it less bad. Saying “no support” doesn't mean “I hate you and your stupid suggestion and get the heck out of the forums and don't ever come back!”, instead, it means “I think this suggestion isn't really that necessary because…”. Saying “no support (reason)” is a form of constructive criticism, the goal of the criticism isn't to hurt people and stop them from foruming, instead, it's to help them to improve their posts, you could say this can still be done without saying “no support”, but I disagree as people might not be sharp enough to pick up the hints.

sharkode wrote:

(#115)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

It's not about being constructive or not, it's about your opinions, the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters.

The suggestions forum kind of is about constructive reasoning, not opinions. The ST doesn't care if a suggestion has a lot of supporters, they care if it's a good idea for Scratch. If they added features based off of opinions, we wouldn't have things such as the studio update.

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

(#115)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

It's not about being constructive or not, it's about your opinions, the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters.

The suggestions forum kind of is about constructive reasoning, not opinions. The ST doesn't care if a suggestion has a lot of supporters, they care if it's a good idea for Scratch. If they added features based off of opinions, we wouldn't have things such as the studio update.

I highly doubt that ST would update the studios if they know how the community would react.

sharkode wrote:

(#118)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

(#115)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

It's not about being constructive or not, it's about your opinions, the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters.

The suggestions forum kind of is about constructive reasoning, not opinions. The ST doesn't care if a suggestion has a lot of supporters, they care if it's a good idea for Scratch. If they added features based off of opinions, we wouldn't have things such as the studio update.

I highly doubt that ST would update the studios if they know how the community would react.

Fun fact: A forum about the studio update made by the ST on a different website (idk if I'm allowed to mention it) was found before the update was even announced, and many users who saw it were angry about said update, to the point where some people would make new accounts just to post on that thread saying how much they hated it.

The ST knew what people thought, and went through with it.

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

(#118)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

(#115)

EatNYeet wrote:

sharkode wrote:

No, I said no support on purpose in order to prove that you can both state your opinion and be constructive at the same time, but saying support/no support is still necessary sometimes.

Nobody said it was always unconstructive to say. It's just unnecessary, as already proven.

It's not about being constructive or not, it's about your opinions, the forums isn't a ballot box, but your opinion still matters.

The suggestions forum kind of is about constructive reasoning, not opinions. The ST doesn't care if a suggestion has a lot of supporters, they care if it's a good idea for Scratch. If they added features based off of opinions, we wouldn't have things such as the studio update.

I highly doubt that ST would update the studios if they know how the community would react.

Fun fact: A forum about the studio update made by the ST on a different website (idk if I'm allowed to mention it) was found before the update was even announced, and many users who saw it were angry about said update, to the point where some people would make new accounts just to post on that thread saying how much they hated it.

The ST knew what people thought, and went through with it.

Most of the users still don't know about it though, plus they might have gone too far to restart the development, I don't think ST is that evil, your opinions does matter in a forum discussion, that's what I'm trying to say.
Also, this topic is like a constructive post generator for both of us :)