As saying ‘support’ or ‘no support’ is not allowed, it's hard to gauge a majority of who agrees with a suggestion and who doesn't.
So why not add an upvote/downvote system?

Well, as far as I'm aware, saying Support/No support is fine as long as you give a reason to why you agree or disagree with the suggestion.

I support.

ConfusedBiscuit wrote:

Well, as far as I'm aware, saying Support/No support is fine as long as you give a reason to why you agree or disagree with the suggestion.

I believe this is correct. I think this would have some rules but generally an alright idea for people who want to search for posts by options of other users. So yes, I support, for my reasons provided.

I think this would be hard to implement. As if the scratch team adds to the forums, it apply's to all forums. So i dont think this would be possible, unless the scratch team finds a way

Suggestions aren't something Scratchers vote on. Suggestions are meant for Scratchers to discuss, and how they can be improved or how it won't work for Scratch. The Scratch Team probably looks at most of the suggestions here (although, I could be wrong, I'm not on the team), if they think it's necessary for Scratch, they'll probably implement it.

Sorry if this post sounds rude BTW.

EZ-Games wrote:

Suggestions aren't something Scratchers vote on. Suggestions are meant for Scratchers to discuss, and how they can be improved or how it won't work for Scratch. The Scratch Team probably looks at most of the suggestions here (although, I could be wrong, I'm not on the team), if they think it's necessary for Scratch, they'll probably implement it.

Sorry if this post sounds rude BTW.

That's true, but some Scratchers are still inclined to express their own opinions on a suggestion; adding a upvote/downvote feature should help remove some of the support/no support spam

Isn't an upvote/downvote feature practically the same as just saying “support” or “no support”? Just upvoting or downvoting a suggestion isn't constructive and doesn't add to the discussion. Suggestions aren't votes anyway… I feel sometimes scratchers think that saying “support” increases the likelihood of the suggestion being put in place, but that isn't true.

LegoManiac04 wrote:

Isn't an upvote/downvote feature practically the same as just saying “support” or “no support”? Just upvoting or downvoting a suggestion isn't constructive and doesn't add to the discussion. Suggestions aren't votes anyway… I feel sometimes scratchers think that saying “support” increases the likelihood of the suggestion being put in place, but that isn't true.

Yes, but at least they don't show up with the rest of the discussion, so not being constructive doesn't matter, and there'll be less spam.

The ST doesn't need to care about what the votes say; I instead see this suggestion as a spam reduction tactic.

Building on my previous post, Scratchers are often so inclined to express their personal opinions as a vote that they just use an already stated reason (or even worse, quote another person's post) as an excuse to post their “support” or “no support,” which is just as spammy and nonconstructive as not giving a reason in the first place

Better title for this suggestion: “We can't say ”x“ and ”y“ so let's add buttons that mean the same as ”x“ and ”y“”

Sheep_maker wrote:

not being constructive doesn't matter

What? Being constructive always matters. The purpose of the Suggestions forum is for people to make suggestions on ideas to benefit and/or improve this website, and then other users can give constructive feedback on that suggestion. An upvote/downvote system will completely take away from the feedback.
After all, this is the "Discussion Forums"! It's meant for discussion.

While I do understand that some people don't give feedback and don't add to the discussion, we need to teach them how to use the forums. I mean come on, most of us likely started off as unconstructive and unknowing scratchers that had really zero idea how to use the forums. But then we learned, and here we are now! And to share my honest opinion, I think an upvote/downvote system is a lazy approach to dealing with users that have yet to learn how to use the forums.

No support.
The number of supporters doesn't influence whether a suggestion is added; even if a million Scratchers supported a rejected suggestion, it wouldn't be added because, well, it's rejected, and for good reasons. The Scratch Team looks at the reasons people support or don't support a suggestion when deciding whether or not to add it, or whether to reject it.

LegoManiac04 wrote:

Sheep_maker wrote:

not being constructive doesn't matter

What? Being constructive always matters. The purpose of the Suggestions forum is for people to make suggestions on ideas to benefit and/or improve this website, and then other users can give constructive feedback on that suggestion. An upvote/downvote system will completely take away from the feedback.
After all, this is the "Discussion Forums"! It's meant for discussion.

While I do understand that some people don't give feedback and don't add to the discussion, we need to teach them how to use the forums. I mean come on, most of us likely started off as unconstructive and unknowing scratchers that had really zero idea how to use the forums. But then we learned, and here we are now! And to share my honest opinion, I think an upvote/downvote system is a lazy approach to dealing with users that have yet to learn how to use the forums.

Yes, but if anyone wanted to leave feedback, they could always put it in a post as it is done now. The only feedback this will discourage is by those who really want to express their opinions and are just forcing out a reason to comply with the constructive recommendations; usually that results in repetition of what has already been said, which is not constructive. While this feature isn't constructive by itself, it helps facilitate constructive discussion elsewhere by removing the spam.

How should we teach them? Definitely not within the forums; that'd only distract away from the discussion. Perhaps a kind reminder on the user's profile could work, but that's only after they've made a mistake; ideally it should be taught earlier. New users don't know what stickies are and why they should be read; we could always add a banner or a pop-up reminding them to read the stickies (a separate suggestion), but children don't read. They'll just ignore it, already overwhelmed by the new and unfamiliar blocks of text, and close it impatiently.

Voting is the most intuitive way to tell the new Scratchers to express their opinions this way, not as a post

Sheep_maker wrote:

LegoManiac04 wrote:

Sheep_maker wrote:

not being constructive doesn't matter

What? Being constructive always matters. The purpose of the Suggestions forum is for people to make suggestions on ideas to benefit and/or improve this website, and then other users can give constructive feedback on that suggestion. An upvote/downvote system will completely take away from the feedback.
After all, this is the "Discussion Forums"! It's meant for discussion.

While I do understand that some people don't give feedback and don't add to the discussion, we need to teach them how to use the forums. I mean come on, most of us likely started off as unconstructive and unknowing scratchers that had really zero idea how to use the forums. But then we learned, and here we are now! And to share my honest opinion, I think an upvote/downvote system is a lazy approach to dealing with users that have yet to learn how to use the forums.

Yes, but if anyone wanted to leave feedback, they could always put it in a post as it is done now. The only feedback this will discourage is by those who really want to express their opinions and are just forcing out a reason to comply with the constructive recommendations; usually that results in repetition of what has already been said, which is not constructive. While this feature isn't constructive by itself, it helps facilitate constructive discussion elsewhere by removing the spam.

How should we teach them? Definitely not within the forums; that'd only distract away from the discussion. Perhaps a kind reminder on the user's profile could work, but that's only after they've made a mistake; ideally it should be taught earlier. New users don't know what stickies are and why they should be read; we could always add a banner or a pop-up reminding them to read the stickies (a separate suggestion), but children don't read. They'll just ignore it, already overwhelmed by the new and unfamiliar blocks of text, and close it impatiently.

Voting is the most intuitive way to tell the new Scratchers to express their opinions this way, not as a post

But just because this is an available feature doesn't mean new Scratchers would use it.
When it comes to teaching them though, you have to remember that this is a children's website. The only way people can learn is by being taught. And how many are taught is through their mistakes. I understand that spam and unconstructiveness can be annoying, but again, this is a children's website. You must consider that kids usually don't have the understanding of what it means to be constructive, and they may also think that spamming is fun and funny. You must have patience, and understand that there are young scratchers out there that aren't as knowing and understanding of constructiveness and the forums in general.

To quote birdoftheday;

birdoftheday wrote:

The moral of the story is that for most things, thousands of votes don't work. There's a reason this place is called called “Discussion” and not “Ballot Box”. Things have to be decided via discussion, not mindless voting. Think of what Scratch could be if we changed and molded suggestions instead of supporting or not supporting them as they stand.

For this reason, no support.

I say this all the time to users who just say “Support” or “No support” on this forum, but I think this ties well into my reasoning here:
No support. The Suggestions sub-forum is not a ballet box; you don't just submit your opinion with no reasons and expect for it to be added/not added.
If a thousand Scratchers upvoted a suggestion, but no one stated their reasoning, would the Scratch Team added it? The reason that you can post replies in this forum is to express your concerns, or add onto how this could help improve the website.

Four times is enough; it's been made clear that the suggestions forum isn't meant for voting, but that isn't a reason why this suggestion shouldn't be implemented; that only states that this suggestion isn't essential, which is already fairly obvious given that Scratch has survived well enough without this feature. This suggestion won't impede discussion, and there's no obligation for the Scratch team to pay attention to the number of votes.

LegoManiac04 wrote:

Sheep_maker wrote:

…

But just because this is an available feature doesn't mean new Scratchers would use it.
When it comes to teaching them though, you have to remember that this is a children's website. The only way people can learn is by being taught. And how many are taught is through their mistakes. I understand that spam and unconstructiveness can be annoying, but again, this is a children's website. You must consider that kids usually don't have the understanding of what it means to be constructive, and they may also think that spamming is fun and funny. You must have patience, and understand that there are young scratchers out there that aren't as knowing and understanding of constructiveness and the forums in general.

Even with this suggestion, Scratchers will make mistakes since the old Support and No Support posts may still encourage them to post their opinions without a reason, so they can still be taught through mistakes

However, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to make this learning process more intuitive. Upvote/downvote buttons at the beginning of a suggestion directly tells a new Scratcher how they could express their opinion (as they are likely not here to actually discuss) before they try to figure it out themselves from the support/no support posts below. (Being told to “vote” on a suggestion instead of “support” would also encourage the use of this feature.) They might not be willing to patiently learn the complex conventions on the forums; they may be here briefly to support their friend's suggestion that was linked from outside the forums.

LegoManiac04 wrote:

I feel sometimes scratchers think that saying “support” increases the likelihood of the suggestion being put in place, but that isn't true.

*laughs in username block*

I think this would be hard to implement. As if the scratch team adds to the forums, it apply's to all forums. So i dont think this would be possible, unless the scratch team finds a way

On the technical end yes this would be very easily possible. The only concern is if it's a good idea.


I don't think it is, people misuse “no support” a lot. And adding a way to do that with a one-click and anonymous is just gonna make that worse.

But I could also see how it might clear out a lot of the SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT and just reduced down to a number.

I propose a like button that would apply to all forums.

Computer_Fizz wrote:

I don't think it is, people misuse “no support” a lot. And adding a way to do that with a one-click and anonymous is just gonna make that worse.

I don't think abuse of this feature really matters since, as others've said, the ST doesn't need to care about the vote count. It hasn't been discussed here yet whether and how the vote count will be displayed (it has been on a duplicate to which I shall not link as to not interrupt the ongoing discussions here)

Computer_Fizz wrote:

I propose a like button that would apply to all forums.

Interesting idea, but what would a “like” mean? Personally, I think something like reactions with common phrases such as “Yep!” “Thanks!” “Got it!” “I agree!” “LOL” etc. would be quite helpful because at least for me, making an entire post to say something like that feels spammy, but not replying at all feels like I'm ghosting (this comes with the added benefit of being translatable); this is a separate idea that belongs in its own thread, however.

Sheep_maker wrote:

Computer_Fizz wrote:

I propose a like button that would apply to all forums.

Interesting idea, but what would a “like” mean? Personally, I think something like reactions with common phrases such as “Yep!” “Thanks!” “Got it!” “I agree!” “LOL” etc. would be quite helpful because at least for me, making an entire post to say something like that feels spammy, but not replying at all feels like I'm ghosting (this comes with the added benefit of being translatable); this is a separate idea that belongs in its own thread, however.

I'd rather see an upvote / downvote option weilded in the same vein as the reddiquette.

Don't downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it. Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons.

LastContinue wrote:

I'd rather see an upvote / downvote option weilded in the same vein as the reddiquette.

Don't downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it. Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons.

That would be ideal, but from what I've seen Reddit isn't perfect despite being used mostly by mature adults. Scratch is used by children who may not be mature enough to downvote thoughtfully or patient enough to bother with an etiquette, so I doubt it would work well here.