jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Ok, I envision a hello world program to look like this (if we use prefix notation)

d"gsS1p

The “d” decompresses the next parameter.

The "gsS1p does not require a closing quote because that is implicitely done at the end of the program. I just made up gsS1p but it would be a compressed version of Hello World.

Interesting. I was more thinking it would look like this

log Hello World

And in this case it assumes it's a string, since it's A) two words and B) not a number. Also, any ideas for a name?

Saiid

“log” is too long – make it “l”. And it should be implicit output so no need for the “l” at all. It could be a variable so we should have one quote atthe start I think.

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Ok, I envision a hello world program to look like this (if we use prefix notation)

d"gsS1p

The “d” decompresses the next parameter.

The "gsS1p does not require a closing quote because that is implicitely done at the end of the program. I just made up gsS1p but it would be a compressed version of Hello World.

Interesting. I was more thinking it would look like this

log Hello World

And in this case it assumes it's a string, since it's A) two words and B) not a number. Also, any ideas for a name?

Saiid

“log” is too long – make it “l”. And it should be implicit output so no need for the “l” at all. It could be a variable so we should have one quote atthe start I think.

We could have one quote at the beginning, but, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't variables supposed to be only one word anyway?

Saiid

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Ok, I envision a hello world program to look like this (if we use prefix notation)

d"gsS1p

The “d” decompresses the next parameter.

The "gsS1p does not require a closing quote because that is implicitely done at the end of the program. I just made up gsS1p but it would be a compressed version of Hello World.

Interesting. I was more thinking it would look like this

log Hello World

And in this case it assumes it's a string, since it's A) two words and B) not a number. Also, any ideas for a name?

Saiid

“log” is too long – make it “l”. And it should be implicit output so no need for the “l” at all. It could be a variable so we should have one quote atthe start I think.

We could have one quote at the beginning, but, correct me if I'm wrong, aren't variables supposed to be only one word anyway?

Saiid

But what if you want two variables?

Hello+World

Hello World

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Anyway, we'll want a built in compressed for the hello world

print "Hello world"

hw

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Anyway, we'll want a built in compressed for the hello world

You mean have the function

print "Hello world"

built in? something like

hw

would print “Hello World” you mean?

Saiid

print "Hello world"

Sigton wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Anyway, we'll want a built in compressed for the hello world

You mean have the function

print "Hello world"

built in? something like

hw

would print “Hello World” you mean?

Saiid

He means compressing the string itself into fewer bytes, so the program will still effectively read

print "Hello world"

but the string “hello world” will itself be shortened.

I like the idea of implicit output, kinda like Python shell. it means we don't need a command to print, and once everything is executed and evaluated the result will be printed (that would make it a very functional language… everything would eventually need to return something).

Sigton

Hello World prints "Hello World"
var prints the value of that variable
3.1415 works the same as the first and prints "3.1415"

var x = 1;

x|1

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

x|1

l x|1

Saiid wrote:

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

But then we would still need to include something that tells it that we're assigning a variable and not printing a string
Also, is everyone fine with having the command “l” for when something needs to be specifically told to log itself? For example,

x|1

might assign a variable, but if we wanted to print “x|1”, we could do

l x|1

Saiid

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

But then we would still need to include something that tells it that we're assigning a variable and not printing a string
Also, is everyone fine with having the command “l” for when something needs to be specifically told to log itself? For example,

x|1

might assign a variable, but if we wanted to print “x|1”, we could do

l x|1

Saiid

Just put quotes around strings.

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

But then we would still need to include something that tells it that we're assigning a variable and not printing a string
Also, is everyone fine with having the command “l” for when something needs to be specifically told to log itself? For example,

x|1

might assign a variable, but if we wanted to print “x|1”, we could do

l x|1

Saiid

Just put quotes around strings.

That adds unnecessary and unneeded bytes that could be saved

Saiid

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

But then we would still need to include something that tells it that we're assigning a variable and not printing a string
Also, is everyone fine with having the command “l” for when something needs to be specifically told to log itself? For example,

x|1

might assign a variable, but if we wanted to print “x|1”, we could do

l x|1

Saiid

Just put quotes around strings.

That adds unnecessary and unneeded bytes that could be saved

Saiid

Variables are more commonly used than strings. It moves bytes from variables to strings.

l x|1
Hello World
012345

'x|1'
'Hello World'
012345

• Use postfix notation. It makes the architecture so much simpler, which means that you're less likely to make mistakes.
  
• Once you've chosen an architecture, choose which data types your program will be able to manipulate. This list will probably consist of booleans, numbers, strings, possibly lists, and maybe a few more. (for instance, you could have a ‘coordinate’ data type (x,y), and corresponding commands that make geometry easier)
  
• Once you are sure of the data types you'll be using, start brainstorming the commands that the language will have. Obviously you'll have things like + and =, but the number of commands is unlimited. Often, more is better. Prioritize which commands will be a single character long, and which ones will be subsets of other characters. (see: “.” in pyth) Keep in mind that while some commands are useless on their own, they can be incredibly useful when other ‘useless’ commands are present. For instance, if your program won't ever need to input or output lists, it can still be useful to process first-class lists internally. List commands would be useless on their own, but useful when put together.
  

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

jokebookservice1 wrote:

Saiid wrote:

IcyCoder wrote:

x|1

To save a byte

1x

But then we would still need to include something that tells it that we're assigning a variable and not printing a string
Also, is everyone fine with having the command “l” for when something needs to be specifically told to log itself? For example,

x|1

might assign a variable, but if we wanted to print “x|1”, we could do

l x|1

Saiid

Just put quotes around strings.

That adds unnecessary and unneeded bytes that could be saved

Saiid

Variables are more commonly used than strings. It moves bytes from variables to strings.

l x|1

l"x|1

Hello World

CodeLegend wrote:

Saiid, I suggest you take a look at ATC#5. Be sure to open the shortened link, it has roughly 100 examples of golfed programs that run in Scratch languages.

If you're going for simplicity (which you've stated), variables and loops are not the way to go as a ‘first step’. Your first step should be basic math; the language doesn't need to be Turing-complete until later in development. That being said, here are some tips:

• Use postfix notation. It makes the architecture so much simpler, which means that you're less likely to make mistakes.
  
• Once you've chosen an architecture, choose which data types your program will be able to manipulate. This list will probably consist of booleans, numbers, strings, possibly lists, and maybe a few more. (for instance, you could have a ‘coordinate’ data type (x,y), and corresponding commands that make geometry easier)
  
• Once you are sure of the data types you'll be using, start brainstorming the commands that the language will have. Obviously you'll have things like + and =, but the number of commands is unlimited. Often, more is better. Prioritize which commands will be a single character long, and which ones will be subsets of other characters. (see: “.” in pyth) Keep in mind that while some commands are useless on their own, they can be incredibly useful when other ‘useless’ commands are present. For instance, if your program won't ever need to input or output lists, it can still be useful to process first-class lists internally. List commands would be useless on their own, but useful when put together.
  

Mostly irrelevant, but back to variables and loops: you don't actually need them. You probably should have them, but a language with strong stack manipulation abilities and a simple ‘goto’ can be Turing-complete.

Saiid wrote:

CodeLegend wrote:

-snip-

Simplicity, yes, but some simplicity can be sacrificed to aid codegolfing. In addition, I was more trying to start with an output command.

Saiid

CodeLegend wrote:

Saiid wrote:

CodeLegend wrote:

-snip-

Simplicity, yes, but some simplicity can be sacrificed to aid codegolfing. In addition, I was more trying to start with an output command.

Saiid

There is no aid to using prefix notation over postfix notation. They are the exact same length.

An output command is the last thing you need. First implement a stack.

d"abc

"abc"d

jokebookservice1 wrote:

CodeLegend wrote:

Saiid wrote:

CodeLegend wrote:

-snip-

Simplicity, yes, but some simplicity can be sacrificed to aid codegolfing. In addition, I was more trying to start with an output command.

Saiid

There is no aid to using prefix notation over postfix notation. They are the exact same length.

An output command is the last thing you need. First implement a stack.

I disagree, when you have implicit closing quotes at the end of the program, then

d"abc

is shorter than

"abc"d