markup languages are programming languages

VoltageGames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4A2mWqLUpzw

Discuss.

also how many of you did I trigger?
http://www.strawpoll.me/10626780

Last edited by VoltageGames (June 30, 2016 05:51:48)

PullJosh

Honestly I find the whole debate pretty unnecessary. Is there a situation in which the distinction would be of any use to anyone?

technoboy10

I mean, HTML+CSS3 is Turing complete, so I guess…?

Dylan5797

technoboy10 wrote:
I mean, HTML+CSS3 is Turing complete, so I guess…?

I guess HTML alone is Turing complete because of inline styling?

BookOwl

PullJosh wrote:
Honestly I find the whole debate pretty unnecessary. Is there a situation in which the distinction would be of any use to anyone?

I'm with @PullJosh. Who really cares?

turkey3

Personally, who cares what things are called by. It really doesn't matter. A “name” is just a human label on something recognizable for easier reference.

-Io-

I care, a bit (And I don't bet you own a Mac

). I just don't see how a language for defining structures, can fit in the definition of programming.

He says that you're simply calling tag(text), but with that definition you could even call a speaking language a programming language:

sentence(subject(pronoun("I"))+predicate(verb("to care","first person","simple present")+comma()+article("a")+noun("bit")))

too lazy to add more categories, specially because I only know Spanish grammar terminology :P
To me, a programming language is instructions for doing something, not instructions for defining something.

jTron

Dylan5797 wrote:
technoboy10 wrote:
I mean, HTML+CSS3 is Turing complete, so I guess…?
I guess HTML alone is Turing complete because of inline styling?

Well, using <style> of course, but if you mean using the style attribute (“HTML alone”) I'm don't think that would be Turing complete, as you can't use the state selectors necessary for the simulation.

nanalan

I'd call markup languages code, sure, but not programming.
Not like it really matters.

BookOwl

-Io- wrote:
…
To me, a programming language is instructions for doing something, not instructions for defining something.

There actually are programming languages that work by having you define thing and then it figures out the answer to your problem. Probably not what you had in mind, though.

bobbybee

BookOwl wrote:
-Io- wrote:
…
To me, a programming language is instructions for doing something, not instructions for defining something.
There actually are programming languages that work by having you define thing and then it figures out the answer to your problem. Probably not what you had in mind, though.

Oh, prolog.

turkey3

I would define programming as making a program, so if using HTML accomplishes that, then it can be considered a programming language. Some of the HTML markup programs different elements to do different things, too. But since it is loosely defined it is all very subjective anyway so for those of you thinking we are all going to reach some big collaborative conclusion you have it wrong.

Last edited by turkey3 (July 1, 2016 00:47:08)

birdoftheday

What does making a program mean? What's a program? All of these terms you leave undefined, which makes it unclear as to whether HTML is a programming language or not

-Io-

BookOwl wrote:
-Io- wrote:
…
To me, a programming language is instructions for doing something, not instructions for defining something.
There actually are programming languages that work by having you define thing and then it figures out the answer to your problem. Probably not what you had in mind, though.

Yeah, but I just can't think of HTML as programming. :I
I just see it as a simple structure which gets rendered, nothing else.

gtoal

birdoftheday wrote:
What does making a program mean? What's a program? All of these terms you leave undefined, which makes it unclear as to whether HTML is a programming language or not

If it doesn't do arithmetic, conditionals and loops, it's not programming. Markup is just laying text out on a page. That's not programming. Some markup languages may contain embedded programming languages (eg TeX's macros, or html embedding javascript) but the markup part of it is not programming, the embedded programming language is.

The reason the distinction is important is because you have these web page designers going around to job interviews claiming to be programmers, without ever having written a line of code, because they think writing HTML is programming. It's not, and saying otherwise diminishes the value of programming and programmers.

Words mean things. You can't just use them to mean something else when you feel like it (unless you are a linguist of the descriptivist school, but I don't believe in legitimising ignorance). Markup is not programming. End of argument.

G

MegaApuTurkUltra

gtoal wrote:
birdoftheday wrote:
What does making a program mean? What's a program? All of these terms you leave undefined, which makes it unclear as to whether HTML is a programming language or not

If it doesn't do arithmetic, conditionals and loops, it's not programming. Markup is just laying text out on a page. That's not programming. Some markup languages may contain embedded programming languages (eg TeX's macros, or html embedding javascript) but the markup part of it is not programming, the embedded programming language is.

The reason the distinction is important is because you have these web page designers going around to job interviews claiming to be programmers, without ever having written a line of code, because they think writing HTML is programming. It's not, and saying otherwise diminishes the value of programming and programmers.

Words mean things. You can't just use them to mean something else when you feel like it (unless you are a linguist of the descriptivist school, but I don't believe in legitimising ignorance). Markup is not programming. End of argument.

G

+1

-Io-

MegaApuTurkUltra wrote:
gtoal wrote:
birdoftheday wrote:
What does making a program mean? What's a program? All of these terms you leave undefined, which makes it unclear as to whether HTML is a programming language or not

If it doesn't do arithmetic, conditionals and loops, it's not programming. Markup is just laying text out on a page. That's not programming. Some markup languages may contain embedded programming languages (eg TeX's macros, or html embedding javascript) but the markup part of it is not programming, the embedded programming language is.

The reason the distinction is important is because you have these web page designers going around to job interviews claiming to be programmers, without ever having written a line of code, because they think writing HTML is programming. It's not, and saying otherwise diminishes the value of programming and programmers.

Words mean things. You can't just use them to mean something else when you feel like it (unless you are a linguist of the descriptivist school, but I don't believe in legitimising ignorance). Markup is not programming. End of argument.

G
+1

+2

Jonathan50

No. Markup languages like HTML describe a document. Programming languages are for programming.

gtoal wrote:
If it doesn't do arithmetic, conditionals and loops, it's not programming.

Some declarative languages don't have any loops (you can use recursion). (And arithmetic can be done with Church numerals.)

Jonathan50

Is he confusing procedural programming with declarative programming?

_x-

gtoal wrote:
If it doesn't do arithmetic, conditionals and loops, it's not programming.

You don't need loops as goto statements and recursion can emulate it

A language doesn't need arithmetic because you can use NOT+OR booleans, or NOR booleans to emulate it.

You also don't need conditionals as goto statements can emulate it.

This computer allows for programming and doesn't use any of the above.

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