Zro716 wrote:

“Many parents”? Who and how many out of what population? What about your own? Go ahead and ask them right now.

“Many parents” out of the parents that I know, which is a lot. I don't know where you live, but where I live, we don't exactly throw that word around like a baseball, no matter the usage. I know a lot of parents that would be uncomfortable if Scratch suddenly decided that this word were allowed. You think that just because the people you know are okay with using that word a lot, that everyone is, but people are different. Not everyone likes to throw that kind of word around. I feel like this is something that a lot of supporters don't understand. You guys think that only you matter, but you don't. This word doesn't matter, at least not on Scratch. Let me ask you something. Why do you really need this word? Like, really? Why, on a kid's programming website, would you ever need to strike up a conversation about this that is so intense that you need to differentiate between what is in your pants and what is in your head using the censored word, instead of one of the many workarounds that people have provided in this conversation, like “physical gender?” Is it really that important? I feel like you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You're taking an issue that doesn't matter- the censoring of a word that is irrelevant on this site- and suddenly turning it into a big issue, despite the fact that it simply is not relevant on this website.

Zro716 wrote:

This idea can be improved but you aren't looking to improve it.

How exactly, can we improve it? How would we censor it, but also not censor it? The issue is whether or not to censor the word. Seems pretty black and white to me. The only gray area I can see is censoring different uses of the word, but that would require to either build an AI that can determine the context of the word (which is a waste of the ST's time), or to have people report inappropriate uses of the word (which is something that I would hope is already in practice, and something that shouldn't really need to be debated whether or not to do).

Zro716 wrote:

You just see that it's a word with a vulgar connotation and as a result you immediately reject it.

It. Is. A. Kid's. Site. Of course I want to censor it; is that suddenly a bad thing now? Oh no! Censoring bad words for children? How horrible! And besides, the fact that the word is vulgar alone may not mean much, but remember, this is a kid's programming website, not a website where people ramble on and on about genders and stuff. I don't see how this is really that important.

Zro716 wrote:

The fact of the matter is you can use the word with positive, non-vulgar intent. The censor in place treats the word as if it cannot be used purposefully, and that a less politically correct euphemism must replace it.

And you seem to treat the word as if it cannot be used maturely and is something that is perfectly fine for anyone to use in any situation.

Zro716 wrote:

What you are fearing is irrational.

Parents getting upset because their children are learning about words with mature meanings? How is that irrational?

Zro716 wrote:

You think that parents aren't smart enough to tell their children that “s*x” means what they are (male or female).

I never said that. And sure, parents probably are smart enough. You know who isn't? Google. The internet. Other kids. The internet (and arguably other kids) is not smart enough to filter out all of the reproduction stuff from the gender-synonym stuff, and will gladly serve it all up.

Zro716 wrote:

You expect that all parents say the “to reproduce” definition. While you have some merit to say that parents are uncomfortable giving “the talk” to their kids, it's wrong to think they should never know. In order for them to grow up as functioning adults, they have to know both definitions of “s*x”.

But do they really need to learn in first grade? The talk is something that kids usually get in middle or high school. I agree that at some point, a kid needs to get “the talk,” but Scratch is not that place, because it is oriented towards people of all ages, and therefore cannot contain content that should only be for middle or high schoolers.

Zro716 wrote:

Now, I hope that you are also aware that the community guidelines themselves encourage the proper use of “s*x”:

Scratch welcomes people of all ages, races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and gender identities.

You see this? The CGs make the distinction between “s*x” and “gender”. If “s*x” should be censored, then the community guidelines should not say “sexual orientations” lest we refer to a “naughty thing”.

The CGs are saying that you are welcome to use Scratch, regardless of your “sexual orientations” or “gender identities.” It does not say “This is the perfect place to talk about your sexual orientations and gender identities.”

DaSpudLord wrote:

Zro716 wrote:

“Many parents”? Who and how many out of what population? What about your own? Go ahead and ask them right now.

“Many parents” out of the parents that I know, which is a lot. I don't know where you live, but where I live, we don't exactly throw that word around like a baseball, no matter the usage. I know a lot of parents that would be uncomfortable if Scratch suddenly decided that this word were allowed. You think that just because the people you know are okay with using that word a lot, that everyone is, but people are different. Not everyone likes to throw that kind of word around. I feel like this is something that a lot of supporters don't understand. You guys think that only you matter, but you don't. This word doesn't matter, at least not on Scratch. Let me ask you something. Why do you really need this word? Like, really? Why, on a kid's programming website, would you ever need to strike up a conversation about this that is so intense that you need to differentiate between what is in your pants and what is in your head using the censored word, instead of one of the many workarounds that people have provided in this conversation, like “physical gender?” Is it really that important? I feel like you are making a mountain out of a molehill. You're taking an issue that doesn't matter- the censoring of a word that is irrelevant on this site- and suddenly turning it into a big issue, despite the fact that it simply is not relevant on this website.

So instead, you take your worldview over his. His word against yours. And somehow, your word trumps his? You certainly don't know even 0.01% of the about 150 million parents (as of 2004, lol) in the US (as a country alone). Your community in no way is a good sample size (partly, and especially, because it's a community, not a sample throughout the whole world or even country).
Have you asked anyone specifically about the term, or is it just that they don't use it in everyday conversation? I don't use “secrete” in everyday conversation, and in some cases, people can find it somewhat repulsive. Case in point - class discussion I had on Friday. That doesn't mean it's “bad” or shouldn't be allowed. Same with words like “fetid”, or even “nice” ones like “sublimate”.
You're saying that we don't matter, but then acting like you do? How the heck can you reason that?

Zro716 wrote:

This idea can be improved but you aren't looking to improve it.

How exactly, can we improve it? How would we censor it, but also not censor it? The issue is whether or not to censor the word. Seems pretty black and white to me. The only gray area I can see is censoring different uses of the word, but that would require to either build an AI that can determine the context of the word (which is a waste of the ST's time), or to have people report inappropriate uses of the word (which is something that I would hope is already in practice, and something that shouldn't really need to be debated whether or not to do).

IMO, the latter is already what should go on - just report inappropriate uses in context. Don't just ban it outright.

Zro716 wrote:

You just see that it's a word with a vulgar connotation and as a result you immediately reject it.

It. Is. A. Kid's. Site. Of course I want to censor it; is that suddenly a bad thing now? Oh no! Censoring bad words for children? How horrible! And besides, the fact that the word is vulgar alone may not mean much, but remember, this is a kid's programming website, not a website where people ramble on and on about genders and stuff. I don't see how this is really that important.

Connotation and denotation are very different. Connotation is an idea attached to a word, and denotation is the literal definition. With connotation, you probably already know the word anyways. Don't limit what we can talk about - as long as it's not inappropriate, though, granted, it can be (but not always!).

Zro716 wrote:

The fact of the matter is you can use the word with positive, non-vulgar intent. The censor in place treats the word as if it cannot be used purposefully, and that a less politically correct euphemism must replace it.

And you seem to treat the word as if it cannot be used maturely and is something that is perfectly fine for anyone to use in any situation.

He's saying that there certainly are ways for it to be used maturely (as it shouldn't be used immaturely), and again, all in context. It's how you say it, not what you say. You can say the same thing in jest and in anger and they certainly mean different things, even though they contain the same arrangement of letters, punctuation, and spaces.

Zro716 wrote:

What you are fearing is irrational.

Parents getting upset because their children are learning about words with mature meanings? How is that irrational?

And sheltering is good, because?

Zro716 wrote:

You think that parents aren't smart enough to tell their children that “s*x” means what they are (male or female).

I never said that. And sure, parents probably are smart enough. You know who isn't? Google. The internet. Other kids. The internet (and arguably other kids) is not smart enough to filter out all of the reproduction stuff from the gender-synonym stuff, and will gladly serve it all up.

Those kids will have access to the other kids and Google with or without knowledge of that term.

Zro716 wrote:

You expect that all parents say the “to reproduce” definition. While you have some merit to say that parents are uncomfortable giving “the talk” to their kids, it's wrong to think they should never know. In order for them to grow up as functioning adults, they have to know both definitions of “s*x”.

But do they really need to learn in first grade? The talk is something that kids usually get in middle or high school. I agree that at some point, a kid needs to get “the talk,” but Scratch is not that place, because it is oriented towards people of all ages, and therefore cannot contain content that should only be for middle or high schoolers.

And you determine when they learn about it? Why do you think you can?

Zro716 wrote:

Now, I hope that you are also aware that the community guidelines themselves encourage the proper use of “s*x”:

Scratch welcomes people of all ages, races, ethnicities, religions, sexual orientations, and gender identities.

You see this? The CGs make the distinction between “s*x” and “gender”. If “s*x” should be censored, then the community guidelines should not say “sexual orientations” lest we refer to a “naughty thing”.

The CGs are saying that you are welcome to use Scratch, regardless of your “sexual orientations” or “gender identities.” It does not say “This is the perfect place to talk about your sexual orientations and gender identities.”

Sexual orientations - who you're attracted to.
Gender identities - what gender you feel you are.
That's the difference. You can say, just as clearly (I think), “sexual identities”. Using “gender” instead just makes it flow better. The point Zro is making that you completely skipped over is that the CGs use a derivative word of the term, namely, “sexual”. And that term isn't censored, and I can assure you, will bring up things on the internet.

Firedrake969 wrote:

DaSpudLord wrote:

...

So instead, you take your worldview over his. His word against yours. And somehow, your word trumps his? You certainly don't know even 0.01% of the about 150 million parents (as of 2004, lol) in the US (as a country alone). Your community in no way is a good sample size (partly, and especially, because it's a community, not a sample throughout the whole world or even country).
Have you asked anyone specifically about the term, or is it just that they don't use it in everyday conversation? I don't use “secrete” in everyday conversation, and in some cases, people can find it somewhat repulsive. Case in point - class discussion I had on Friday. That doesn't mean it's “bad” or shouldn't be allowed. Same with words like “fetid”, or even “nice” ones like “sublimate”.
You're saying that we don't matter, but then acting like you do? How the heck can you reason that?

Okay, I admit, that was a problem with my logic (I'm not too good at writing arguments sometimes in case you didn't notice, and I kinda rushed through that post). But the point I was trying to get across was that there are parents who do care whether or not their kids are exposed to the word, and I'd rather be on the safe side.

Firedrake969 wrote:

...

Connotation and denotation are very different. Connotation is an idea attached to a word, and denotation is the literal definition. With connotation, you probably already know the word anyways. Don't limit what we can talk about - as long as it's not inappropriate, though, granted, it can be (but not always!).

I know what connotation and denotation mean. And no one is limiting what you can talk about. People have listed plenty of workarounds for the word in question, such as “physical gender” (which you guys seem to conveniently ignore in all of your responses).

Firedrake969 wrote:

...

He's saying that there certainly are ways for it to be used maturely (as it shouldn't be used immaturely), and again, all in context. It's how you say it, not what you say. You can say the same thing in jest and in anger and they certainly mean different things, even though they contain the same arrangement of letters, punctuation, and spaces.

I know, but it seems to me that he is ignoring the fact that the word does have a negative connotation attached to it just so that he can use the word without getting censored.

Firedrake969 wrote:

...

And sheltering is good, because?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Since when did sheltering young kids become a bad thing? Do you guys have, like, super relaxed parents or something?

Firedrake969 wrote:

...

Those kids will have access to the other kids and Google with or without knowledge of that term.

But without knowledge of what that term is, they won't be purposely searching for it.

Firedrake969 wrote:

...

Sexual orientations - who you're attracted to.
Gender identities - what gender you feel you are.
That's the difference. You can say, just as clearly (I think), “sexual identities”. Using “gender” instead just makes it flow better. The point Zro is making that you completely skipped over is that the CGs use a derivative word of the term, namely, “sexual”. And that term isn't censored, and I can assure you, will bring up things on the internet.

That's not my fault. I can't help it if the ST is being hypocritical. Maybe they just don't want kids running around on the site using it all the time. Either way, I still stand by my point.
(Speaking of the ST, I'd like to see them comment on this thread…)

You can find more ‘mature’ words in the household dictionary than on Scratch at all.

It's nobody's job but that of the parents to decide what to shield from their child's eyes. Parents conscious about ‘mature’ content are generally those who use parental controls, filters and keep a close eye.

If ‘mature’ words are used in bad context just use the report button.

But the point I was trying to get across was that there are parents who do care whether or not their kids are exposed to the word, and I'd rather be on the safe side.

See above

I know what connotation and denotation mean. And no one is limiting what you can talk about. People have listed plenty of workarounds for the word in question, such as “physical gender” (which you guys seem to conveniently ignore in all of your responses).

A workaround doesn't always justify it not being here - just like we say when suggesting Scratch blocks

Since when did sheltering young kids become a bad thing? Do you guys have, like, super relaxed parents or something?

There are degrees of sheltering - don't turn it into a slippery slope, lol. Sheltering from the term “sexual” and terms like it? It seems like Scratch itself in the CGs doesn't mind, lol

But without knowledge of what that term is, they won't be purposely searching for it.

Wikipedia effect. Or just looking in the dictionary, like the above post states.

That's not my fault. I can't help it if the ST is being hypocritical. Maybe they just don't want kids running around on the site using it all the time. Either way, I still stand by my point.

Never said it was your fault, lol. What I'm saying is that the ST seems to be fine with the term “sexual”, and by extension could (should?) be fine with its root used in an appropriate context.

Your central point seems to be that parents don't want their children exposed to certain things. However, it has an appropriate context and an inappropriate context - something that not many words classified as “swear words” seem to have. I haven't seen you rebut that yet…

Bottom line? It's all about context, and some words can't be used in an appropriate context so they're just flat-out censored. But that does not apply to every term that can possibly be used in an inappropriate way. I can think of multiple words that fit that case, in fact.

Firedrake969 wrote:

But the point I was trying to get across was that there are parents who do care whether or not their kids are exposed to the word, and I'd rather be on the safe side.

See above

See what, exactly? There's a lot of stuff above.

Firedrake969 wrote:

I know what connotation and denotation mean. And no one is limiting what you can talk about. People have listed plenty of workarounds for the word in question, such as “physical gender” (which you guys seem to conveniently ignore in all of your responses).

A workaround doesn't always justify it not being here - just like we say when suggesting Scratch blocks

But a workaround should not be ignored, either.

Firedrake969 wrote:

Since when did sheltering young kids become a bad thing? Do you guys have, like, super relaxed parents or something?

There are degrees of sheltering - don't turn it into a slippery slope, lol. Sheltering from the term “sexual” and terms like it? It seems like Scratch itself in the CGs doesn't mind, lol

While I can't agree that the term should be on Scratch at all, even in the CGs, it's only one place on the entire Scratch website. What happens when we allow kids to start posting it everywhere on the site?

Firedrake969 wrote:

But without knowledge of what that term is, they won't be purposely searching for it.

Wikipedia effect. Or just looking in the dictionary, like the above post states.

Because as a normal kid, I can confirm that normal kids read through the dictionary weekly. Fun book. 10/10 would read again.
</sarcasm>

Firedrake969 wrote:

That's not my fault. I can't help it if the ST is being hypocritical. Maybe they just don't want kids running around on the site using it all the time. Either way, I still stand by my point.

Never said it was your fault, lol. What I'm saying is that the ST seems to be fine with the term “sexual”, and by extension could (should?) be fine with its root used in an appropriate context.

Like I said, the ST probably just doesn't want it all over Scratch, and are trying to use it as little as possible.

Firedrake969 wrote:

Your central point seems to be that parents don't want their children exposed to certain things. However, it has an appropriate context and an inappropriate context - something that not many words classified as “swear words” seem to have. I haven't seen you rebut that yet…

Bottom line? It's all about context, and some words can't be used in an appropriate context so they're just flat-out censored. But that does not apply to every term that can possibly be used in an inappropriate way. I can think of multiple words that fit that case, in fact.

That's true. But the problem with introducing the appropriate context, even without introducing the inapproriate context, is that the kid will start using the word (as it is now part of his/her vocabulary), and once they start using it, they're at risk for finding other definitions of the word. Of course, maybe this wouldn't happen, and there probably are instances where this won't happen. I really have no evidence to prove that this would happen, it's just a theory. A GAME THEORY! Thanks for watching!
Anyway, I think that there must be a reason that the ST decided to censor it, despite including it in the CGs. I'd actually like to see their comment on this.

See what, exactly? There's a lot of stuff above.

I meant the post directly above mine.

But a workaround should not be ignored, either.

It wasn't ignored - I just replied to it! lol

While I can't agree that the term should be on Scratch at all, even in the CGs, it's only one place on the entire Scratch website. What happens when we allow kids to start posting it everywhere on the site?

Slippery slope - it won't be “everywhere” It's already allowed, anyways, AFAIK - I was able to post “sexual” as a comment, so “sexual” is allowed it in an appropriate manner it seems

Because as a normal kid, I can confirm that normal kids read through the dictionary weekly. Fun book. 10/10 would read again.

Or Wikipedia, or browsing the internet in general. Try not to selectively skip…

Like I said, the ST probably just doesn't want it all over Scratch, and are trying to use it as little as possible.

There's no other use for it, really - I tend to use words only when I actually need them, not just for the heck of it xD How can you talk for the ST? or are you just guessing? I would assume the latter.

That's true. But the problem with introducing the appropriate context, even without introducing the inapproriate context, is that the kid will start using the word (as it is now part of his/her vocabulary), and once they start using it, they're at risk for finding other definitions of the word. Of course, maybe this wouldn't happen, and there probably are instances where this won't happen. I really have no evidence to prove that this would happen, it's just a theory.

Once you're on the internet, you're “at risk” for a heck of a lot of things. Slippery slope again, I think.

Anyway, I think that there must be a reason that the ST decided to censor it, despite including it in the CGs. I'd actually like to see their comment on this.

Instead of commenting for them? (also, I posted “test - my s*x is male” on my comments and it didn't block it, so there's that…)

Firedrake969 wrote:

(also, I posted “test - my s*x is male” on my comments and it didn't block it, so there's that…)

wait wat.

literally why does this thread exist

Firedrake969 wrote:

See what, exactly? There's a lot of stuff above.

I meant the post directly above mine.

But a workaround should not be ignored, either.

It wasn't ignored - I just replied to it! lol

While I can't agree that the term should be on Scratch at all, even in the CGs, it's only one place on the entire Scratch website. What happens when we allow kids to start posting it everywhere on the site?

Slippery slope - it won't be “everywhere” It's already allowed, anyways, AFAIK - I was able to post “sexual” as a comment, so “sexual” is allowed it in an appropriate manner it seems

Seriously, end the flame war.

iamunknown2 wrote:

Firedrake969 wrote:

See what, exactly? There's a lot of stuff above.

I meant the post directly above mine.

But a workaround should not be ignored, either.

It wasn't ignored - I just replied to it! lol

While I can't agree that the term should be on Scratch at all, even in the CGs, it's only one place on the entire Scratch website. What happens when we allow kids to start posting it everywhere on the site?

Slippery slope - it won't be “everywhere” It's already allowed, anyways, AFAIK - I was able to post “sexual” as a comment, so “sexual” is allowed it in an appropriate manner it seems

Seriously, end the flame war.

srsly end this thread in general because s*x is apparently not even censored

OmnipotentPotato wrote:

Firedrake969 wrote:

(also, I posted “test - my s*x is male” on my comments and it didn't block it, so there's that…)

wait wat.

literally why does this thread exist

Wait you're right… I just posted the word in question in a comment on my profile and it didn't get censored…

So… should we close this, then?

DaSpudLord wrote:

OmnipotentPotato wrote:

Firedrake969 wrote:

(also, I posted “test - my s*x is male” on my comments and it didn't block it, so there's that…)

wait wat.

literally why does this thread exist

Wait you're right… I just posted the word in question in a comment on my profile and it didn't get censored…

So… should we close this, then?

Well - it is still censored on the forums…

Interesting that “sexual” doesn't get censored though, huh

Wow, how did this get many posts in a short amount of days?

TheHockeyist wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

TheHockeyist wrote:

efg1210 wrote:

TheHockeyist wrote:

Well, it can be used in other ways, so as a result, it has to be censored.

There is a report button, why can't that be used?

It can be used. Are you clicking it?

No, efg1210 is saying that since we can report posts which use the word in an inappropriate way, we should allow the word to be said.

Oh. I still disagree. Imagine the five-year-olds asking their parents what it means once they've seen it on Scratch.

But Scratch isnt recommended for five-year-olds anyway.

SashaGeorge wrote:

TheHockeyist wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

…

Oh. I still disagree. Imagine the five-year-olds asking their parents what it means once they've seen it on Scratch.

But Scratch isnt recommended for five-year-olds anyway.

It's designed for 8-16 year olds, says the For Parents page, but it's also for little kids:

For Parents wrote:

What is the age range for Scratch?
While Scratch is primarily designed for 8 to 16 year olds, it is also used by people of all ages, including younger children with their parents.

Thank you anyone who didn't simply shoot down the idea! And to anyone who supported it! <3

Thanks for all the interesting discussion. I think we're pretty happy with the filter the way it's set now. It doesn't seem to be interfering too badly with the kind of conversations we expect to take place here - and it puts a brake on trolls and unsavory spammers.