This sorta fits in 2 forums, at the moment I don't know which would be better.
(Questions About Scratch)

So I have started to notice this on a lot of forum posts in the suggestions forum, and myself may have used this “term/phrase” once or twice.

The phrase is:

“This might be confusing to New Scratchers”

Now, I'm bringing this up because this seems to be an arising issue. How offensive is this to New Scratchers? I mean I wouldn't like it if I was considered “always” confused. Like, I bet New Scratchers understand more than us Scratchers think they do. So I think the ST should consider this a “rude” saying. Instead of saying “to New Scratchers” say: “It might be confusing to some people”.

Bumpity Bump! Why does no one ever reply to my posts :'(

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory towards those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory to those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Yes true, so would you support this being counted as against the guidelines?

MathlyCat wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory to those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Yes true, so would you support this being counted as against the guidelines?

I'm not sure. Most people probably say it without realizing or intending disrespect. After all, we were all New Scratchers once, so it would be hypocritical criticize them. Perhaps forum posters could be recommended, but not absolutely required, to use a better phrase.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

MathlyCat wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory to those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Yes true, so would you support this being counted as against the guidelines?

I'm not sure. Most people probably say it without realizing or intending disrespect. After all, we were all New Scratchers once, so it would be hypocritical criticize them. Perhaps forum posters could be recommended, but not absolutely required, to use a better phrase.

Yes, that would be better. As not every New Scratcher is young.

Yeah. I use this all the time, but I do see your arguments against this. Scratch Novices might be better. Heck, let's rename the rank and cause controversy all over again!

TheHockeyist wrote:

Yeah. I use this all the time, but I do see your arguments against this. Scratch Novices might be better. Heck, let's rename the rank and cause controversy all over again!

That would ruin the point; saying New Scratchers would be confused would be grouping people with that rank of all skill levels into one skill level. Users should not refer to beginners with an account status, but rather an experience level.

I don't think they're talking about the rank, but the general status, as in you are “new” to using “scratch”. If you think this is offensive, then I dunno, then

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory towards those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

I have to agree with this.

ChocolatePi wrote:

I don't think they're talking about the rank, but the general status, as in you are “new” to using “scratch”. If you think this is offensive, then I dunno, then

This is what I mean as well. Perhaps the ST needs to find a better name for the rank.

TheHockeyist wrote:

ChocolatePi wrote:

I don't think they're talking about the rank, but the general status, as in you are “new” to using “scratch”. If you think this is offensive, then I dunno, then

This is what I mean as well. Perhaps the ST needs to find a better name for the rank.

Why would they need to rename the rank? People who are New Scratchers are, generally, new to Scratch, like I said, and it is fair to say some more complicated concepts might be too advanced.

I'm indifferent. It probably shouldn't be banned, but it does seem a tad bit offensive, since if a seasoned programmer decided to join Scratch, they would have to get to full Scratcherdom first.
I kind of also think the “confusing to New Scratchers” thing is kind of weird in itself. People shut down suggestions saying that it would be confusing, and while things can be confusing to everyone, it also doesn't provide any other evidence. Once I responded to that saying “Then I guess we should get rid of remixes because if a New Scratcher tries to remix one of griffpatch's project, they might get confused.” Not to get offtopic, but has anyone else noticed this?

yeah i know, when i was a new scratcher (even though i was on the website for 20 months), people wouldn't let me join collabs because they thought i was new to scratch

At least “New Scratchers” aren't “newbies” or “noobs” in Scratch…

iamunknown2 wrote:

At least “New Scratchers” aren't “newbies” or “noobs” in Scratch…

Yeah, that would be horrible.

My opinion on this is kind of indifferent. I don't see why it's that bad, and if someone said something might be confusing to me, I wouldn't mind. Keep in mind that some new scratchers aren't actually new to programming. I can see how new scratcher can be rude, but what would you change it to anyway?

when [chromometer altimeter v] = [5th length v] and [7th length v] with a [gap v] of (17) ::events hat
forge [chromometer v] altimeter until < (speed) = (velocity)> ::control cstart
	switch places with (759 v) altimeters with value of (speed) ::looks
	control [altimeter 1 v] at time (10):(17):(58) ::control
end
initialize sequence (24) so [object 3 v] moves to x (156) y (231) ::control
reveal [final answer v] and stop running this script ::events cap

There is no shame in being a new Scratcher, neither being a new whatever. At contrary. Newbies are in constant and fast evolution, while used people often get stuck on mental schemes they built during their acquisition of the subject. Do you know the Peter Principle ?

But for what concerns warning people about complexity, I think it's important to do it.
In order for them not to be discouraged when they'll face the inextricable inside of a killing example. We want to encourage everyone, don't we?

Now, about the wording.. IMO it's not really important as long as you keep fair, always leave at least a door open, and show a way to go one step further.

Greetz,
Dimitri.

I think the only reason why it might be is because of the rank, it implies that the rank means you are bad at Scratch. Saying something might be confusing to people new to Scratch makes sense, because it does take people time to get used to Scratch or anything else. People only say it might be confusing anyway, not that it will confuse everyone who is new and no-one else.

About rejecting ideas based on this, I don't normally reject stuff just for being confusing unless it is really complex, although I do sometimes suggest changes to a suggestion that will make it easier to understand.

As for the wording, I use “new Scratchers” for people new to Scratch, and “New Scratchers” for the rank. It's a very small difference though, maybe there could be a better name for it.

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory towards those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Discriminatory?

I think New Scratchers would be confused about that statement. just kidding!

However, it is a general fact - New Scratchers tend to be much less advanced than Scratchers. Why? Well, because Scratchers have had more experience with the software! Besides, New Scratchers with programming experience tend to get the Scratcher rank fairly quickly, I'd say.

Also, if I were to suggest this block

Apply a quaso-unicomplex [curvature v] displacement field to [sprite 7 v] :: control // lol I have no clue what this even says

Saying New Scratchers would be confused is not discriminatory at all because even if they had loads of programming experience they would have no clue what the block did, simply because they were new to the software! (and because that block is downright gobbelty gook xD)

I say that the phrase “confusing to New Scratchers” is fine, so long as it's not “New Scratchers are dumb” or anything.

BTW who supports the suggested block above? It would totally improve Scratch!!!! PLEASE???? xD

-Superdoggy

Superdoggy wrote:

Chibi-Matoran wrote:

I guess it is a little offensive, but that's only because “New Scratcher” is more of a rank than an experience level, so it can be discriminatory towards those with the rank who have had prior programming experience. Perhaps the phrase “Scratch novices,” or a similar phrase indicating skill level, would be more appropriate.

Discriminatory?

I think New Scratchers would be confused about that statement. just kidding!

However, it is a general fact - New Scratchers tend to be much less advanced than Scratchers. Why? Well, because Scratchers have had more experience with the software! Besides, New Scratchers with programming experience tend to get the Scratcher rank fairly quickly, I'd say.

Also, if I were to suggest this block

Apply a quaso-unicomplex [curvature v] displacement field to [sprite 7 v] :: control // lol I have no clue what this even says

Saying New Scratchers would be confused is not discriminatory at all because even if they had loads of programming experience they would have no clue what the block did, simply because they were new to the software! (and because that block is downright gobbelty gook xD)

I say that the phrase “confusing to New Scratchers” is fine, so long as it's not “New Scratchers are dumb” or anything.

BTW who supports the suggested block above? It would totally improve Scratch!!!! PLEASE???? xD

-Superdoggy

Agreed.
(Not about the block though)