Download this project!
Download the one sprite and one script of "BYOB3-trailer" and open it in Scratch Project Notes
The Scratch Team have suggested that there should be a separate version of Scratch for college computer science students. We disagree. By following the principle of first class data, we can have a powerful Scratch with very few visible additions to the interface.
These ideas are implemented in BYOB 3, with first class lists and first class procedures. It is available at
http://byob.berkeley.edu
This project is a severely abbreviated version of the full 20-minute propaganda film we prepared for the Scratch Team, which is too big to upload to the Scratch site. You can download it from
http://byob.berkeley.edu/scratch4cs.sb
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I thought that BYOB meant Bring Your Own [Insert item that starts with a B]
It's a pun!
(view all replies)Sweet. Parents strongly cautioned.
how do you do that!?
You download [url=http://byob.berkeley.edu]BYOB[/url]! And then you read the manual and/or watch the tutorials.
I think these features should be merged into scratch, but hidden by default so as not to confuse new users, but could be easily displayed by more advanced users.
Anyway, you're preaching to the choir; tell the Scratch Team!
Me too, but the problem is that new users would see advancd users' projects that use them and get confused. So they'd have to hide those projects, too.
(view all replies)I've got a binary tree data structure, preliminary, in byob. Anyone want to see this? Loads data into the tree - inorder, then prints out the tree in preorder, inorder, postorder.
Local variables in byob? Make a block 'Test' and use a 'script variable' x. I think script variables are meant to be local? Make a regular variable, also x. Set the global x to 0. Set the local, block, variable x to 10. When I do this, I think the global x is changed to 10. Not sure I'm creating local variables to blocks correctly...thanks for your help.
I'm guessing that you chose the SET variable before attaching the SET block to the actual script. SET can't see script variables unless it's part of the script; even if you later attach the SET to the script, it's still setting the global. If this isn't your problem, let me know.
How do you declare local variables for blocks? There's a nice sierpinksi triangle project on the link below, but I had to set the expressions for midx1, midy1, etc in the parameter list rather than using local variables. The 'script variables' didn't seem to work as local to the recursive block. Here's the code I based mine on https://webmail.fcps.edu/owa/redir.aspx?C=7bf3e6de227e4704900904cd94af38dd&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nutt.net%2f2010%2f03%2f06%2fteaching-recursion-with-scratch-byob%
i have byob
So, I suppose I don't need coding skills to use BYOB, right?
Since BYOB is a superset of Scratch, you can start by doing Scratch-ish things and gradually learn more. You don't need prior experience in other languages, if that's what you're asking, but some of the ideas will definitely stretch your mind. Check out the tutorial projects.
Excellent work ! Is it possible to embed a BYOB project in a web page, as it is possible for Scratch projects ? (http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Publishing_your_Scratch_projects_on_other_websites)
Not yet, sorry, but 4.0 (planned for fall 2011) will run in a browser.
Happy new year!
You should be able to have first-class sprites so that a script can run itself in that sprite or run another first class script in it!
Planned for BYOB 3.1, this spring.
I think there should be a series of blocks that make blocks. The pallet name? It should be "BYOB".
Planned (but we're still throwing around ideas about the precise notation) for 4.0, in the fall.
Byob rocks.
Thanks! :)
BYOB is SO complicated! The only reason I looked at these Extras was for MESH
About mesh, if you join a mesh (in the Share menu) then the other people in the mesh have access to your variables and sprites (using the [<> OF <>] block in Sensing). Is that what you meant?
(view all replies)<true> and <false> are mostly for writing predicate blocks: IF <such-and-such> [REPORT <true>]. But Scratch should have had them all along; they confusingly sometimes use the text "true" and "false" but sometimes 1 and 0 respectively. So people end up writing IF [<such-and-such> = "true"] ...
Sorry -- maybe it'll grow on you. But, you don't have to use all the new features at once, or at all.
(view all replies)The Scratch Team is actually considering to use some of these features in Scratch 2.0. http://info.scratch.mit.edu/Scratch2FAQ
BYOB does have source code! Double click "BYOB Development.bat" (windows) or "BYOB Development.sh" (mac) then shift-click the Edit menu to get to a browser.
(view all replies)Hiding the advanced blocks wouldn't help. It's not the blocks themselves that worry the S.T., but rather the possibility that /projects/ using those blocks would confuse the users who have them hidden.
(view all replies)Right now they're talking about allowing users to create command blocks, but not reporters. And no first class blocks or lists. This is a step forward, but less of one than I would have hoped.
(view all replies)Scratch+BYOB+Half-life?
Oh I see. The lambda in that slide is the computer science symbol for the operator that allows creating first class procedures, like THE BLOCK and THE SCRIPT inBYOB.
Umm, is that a video game?
(view all replies)PLEASE REPLY will you put another block in there called save ( ,) to ( ) |( )means vaiable/list/text |,is dropdown it would show a list of variales/lists
I'm not quite sure what you want this block to do. I get the part about saving a variable or list, but not the TO part. To a filename, did you mean?
(view all replies)PLEASE REPLY will you put another block in there called save ( ,) to ( ) ( )means vaiable/list/text ,is dropdown it would show a list of variales/lists
Subroutines, anyone? =D
I saved a BYOB project but it got deleted when I tried to open it in Scratch.
P.S. There's no way we can make it possible for Scratch to open BYOB projects; the whole point of BYOB is that it can do things Scratch can't do! Eventually we'll have some kind of sharing solution -- what we hope for is that the Scratch Team will adopt our design in Scratch 2.0 but failing that we'll have some technology for sharing. Not soon though; we're rushing to meet our August release date with bugs fixed!
(view all replies)You can't open BYOB projects in Scratch, but Scratch shouldn't be deleting them either! BYOB projects are now saved with extension .ypr rather than .sb so maybe you're looking for the wrong filename?
(view all replies)shveet!
Awesome!!!
I wish they didn't limit the depth of replies -- this is really a reply to your other comments below. We do have tutorials ((link to project) but I agree that there should be a simpler one to start the series. About games, BYOB doesn't directly make them multiplayer (although there is mesh networking), but its ability to do object oriented programming might help with keeping track of the local data for each player. I'll let some game programmer comment!
(view all replies)I have a suggustion. Byob is pretty good except you can only run it with Byob compilers. If you had a chance I would make it so you can convert them into .exe programs. Still it is fairly good, except once again you can make a project but you cant make it a real application. Please tell me if I'm wrong or if I misunderstood something.
You don't have to give us any money. I think the only license restriction, really, is about redistributing the Scratch (and therefore the BYOB) /source code/, which you're probably not doing. I must say, though, I doubt you're going to make a killing on software that's as slow as anything written in Scratch or BYOB will be, compared to languages that are really compiled into machine code.
(view all replies)About credit: The .exe includes basically the whole BYOB interpreter, which is based on Scratch, so probably you should say something like "built in BYOB, based on Scratch from MIT." That should make everyone happy. :)
(view all replies)In the "share" menu, the first item is "compile this project." It only works on Windows, alas, but since you said ".exe" I assume that's what you're running on.
(view all replies)I have the closest anyone can get to BYOB 3.0... 2.99013!
I have the closest anyone can get to 3.0... 2.99!
Som of this I understand, the rest....huh?! I wouldn't be able to figure out how it works!
Yes, you would. Maybe not right away; the ideas are unfamiliar to pretty much everyone at first. Maybe try downloading the tutorial Scratch projects at http://byob.berkeley.edu and see if they help.
(view all replies)So from this you're saying data is scripts and commands. I so of get what you say, but what is still confusing for the reason of how you will fight off any glitches BECAUSE of the new blocks, if this occurs.
If you mean that people can make mistakes using these tools, that's true, and we're working on debugging tools to help -- although people can always make mistakes no matter what! :) If you mean that our code might have bugs, it sure does, which is why we're doing a public alpha test, which has uncovered bunches of them already. We're pretty sure our official release in August will be solid, knock on wood.
(view all replies)"BYOB 3" should be called "Scratch Advanced" once it comes out. I don't think I understand half of what was said or how in the world you would be able to make it do the things that you've mentioned. Well, I'm going to go fry my brain with BYOB 2.99 by not understanding it.
There are two tutorials (look in my stuff or the BYOB3 gallery) that I hope will be helpful in understanding the new capabilities. It does take some wrapping your mind around it; don't think you're hopeless if you don't get it all instantly.
(view all replies)This is excellent. The 'call with inputs' is especially good. I am definitely downloading this.
Doesn't "propaganda" mean "information, esp. of a biased or misleading nature"?
Sure, but the "especially" part leaves room for something to be accurate and still propaganda. I labelled it that way to make clear that this project advocates a point of view, and that I know that a complete, unbiased, scholarly discussion would explain other points of view with equal clarity. (And there aren't just two points of view; there are many ideas floating around about the best directions for change in Scratch 2.0.)
(view all replies)It looks awesome! I'll have it the second my computer gets fixed! :D (I'm on my dad's computer now and he doesn't like me to download)
Woahhh.....
so that symbol I saw WAS the lambada?!
Ah, finally somebody got it. :) (But: "lambada" is a dance step; the Greek letter is "lambda," only two As.)
(view all replies)oh my this is confusing... it seems so backwards to me. its like a language where you can have a variable be a function, and then have a function of a function, and that would be... ugh...
I didn't mean that we're going to program fourier transforms in BYOB, although there's no reason you couldn't. I meant just that the psychological factors that make calculus seem so hard to most people are also part of first class procedures. It's the mental shift between "actions are actions, stuff is stuff" and "actions can be stuff too." Once you're over that hump, I think the details aren't hard.
Sorry, ran over the charater limit. ... help people over that hurdle. But, once you get it, it's really a thing of beauty, and you feel like you have super powers compared to all those muggle programmers who don't get it. :)
Don't be discouraged. This /is/ a hard idea: functions as data. For example, calculus is notoriously a hard course even for some people who were great at high school math. and the reason is that it's about two important /functions of functions/: derivative and integral. Most people have to struggle a while to get past the wall in our heads between actions (functions) and stuff (data). But I'm convinced that the visual representation of functions in Scratch is going to help people over that h
(view all replies)Hi Jens an Brian: Great Work! I'm very happy about your very sophisticated efforts to enlarge the possibilities of Scratch. Hope one day (soon!!) the MIT-Team puts many of your BYOB-Prototype-Ideas into mainstram Scratch. Scratch is a great start for young people, but you are showing ways to invent the future of teaching programming to everbody...and perhaps not only teaching but programming itself get's visual by something like Scratch...
by the way, when you put a block into a starting block (ones with a wavy top), what does it do? I mean, if you put move 10 steps into a starting block, what happens?
You can't just drag an existing block into a hat block. We put a-block-in-a-hat-block at the top of the script you write in the Block Editor. That block-in-the-block is the new block you're creating!
i think i'll leave this for next year....
...you lost me after 26 seconds...
Sorry to hear it. I take it the 26 was approximate? Because nothing very technical happens 26 seconds in. Maybe try looking at my project BYOB3-tutorial1a and see if that helps any.
(view all replies)I shall show my dad the smart man that could make anything like this on scratch for his knowledge is extensive beyond several millions of lightyears for he is smart. he made my other account Deth109's "space adventures with joe" project.
That was amazing!!! I've already made an [animate costumes [] through []] and it's working really well, it makes animating things so much easier. But I still wonder what the "Run" block is for.
You're probably imagining putting a specific command block into a RUN. But think about putting a /variable/ in there, where the value of the variable is a script. Give me a couple of days and there'll be a tutorial up about it.
(view all replies)Okay, IT'S HERE! http://byob.berkeley.edu
Yes, yes, YES! This contains just about everything I wanted on Scratch, and more! You can almost do as much as with a real programming language! I can't wait for the release of BYOB3! I think that the lists within lists was a great idea!
I know. I can't wait another second
Wow, this looks great! I've been using BYOB pretty much since it first came out, and you've put a lot of features in that I wanted. All those input types are great! The lists within lists are great, and I love all the features in general. I can't wait for it to come out!
are you actually going to make this?
Oh, yes, we /have/ made it. The pictures in the project are actual screenshots from BYOB2.99. Jens is fixing a few last-minute bugs, and I'm trying to figure out why I can't get it to quit on the Mac, but I'd say tomorrow at the latest.
(view all replies)...wooooah. you lost me a bit for some of it because im not the most experienced programmer, but the entire thing looks amazing. Not to mention the fact that people who find these things daunting can choose to program without them. Please, scratch team, use these updates in 2.0!
really great ideas! please tell me when its out.
It's out!
I would pay big money for all of these features... Try to not get any ideas. ;) This is awesome!
so could a series of costumes be in a list? like an animation? If so, I'm making my metal slug game with this. This is awesome
As of today, we've added only lists, blocks, and scripts to the collection of first class data. But costumes are way up high on the list. I had been thinking about first class costumes in terms of looking inside them (at pixels), but you're right, viewing a list of costumes as an animation is a terrific idea.
Whoa.
OMG!
Awsome. Can't wait for it to be released :D
This looks amazing! Will you be able to save block lists to files? (like saving text lists to files with export)
Eventually. Not next week, sorry. But of course you can save a project file that includes a script that reconstructs your list. (But it won't be as useful as text import/export anyway, because only BYOB will be able to make sense of your blocks, unlike text, which will interchange with any software.)
That's the best trailer i've ever seen! Can't Wait for it! Thanks! Das ist der beste Trailer, den ich je gesehen habe. Ich kann's kaum abwarten! Danke!
This looks amazing! I can't wait for its release. I have one concern, however, when you create your own block for a program you make, and save that program, do you also have to give someone the image if you want to allow them to use the project?
Yes! you make your own blocks in BYOB and you can share the project or a sprite with someone else's BYOB. The blocks are defined in the project.
(view all replies)BYOB has a built-in compiler that let's you export your project as stand-alone executables (for Windows).
Yes, BYOB projects run only in BYOB, not in Scratch. (Not the other way around, though; BYOB will load Scratch projects.) This is another reason why it's important to get these ideas into mainstream Scratch.
(view all replies)This can be much more than I was expecting. Thank you.
asum
However I love all the ideas in this prject, you might want to rethink the names of the new blocks. I found it hard to understand some. In Scratch, blocks do what they say and don't have prgramming language in them. I also didn't understand why you would need a run block, if a simple When Green Flag Clickedm starts a script and can decide when to run what you need by using wait blocks and ifs. Maybe I am misunderstanding the point, but by your demonstration, it ran the script in it.
"I found it hard to understand some." Could you be specific? That would be very helpful! Thanks! About the Green Flag hat, think about being able to write, yourself, a block like REPEAT (or the FOR in the project).
one idea is that you can create you own control structures in BYOB. Imagine creating your own block that is C-shaped like Scratch's IF block, or E-shaped like Scratch's IF ELSE block. Examples would be blocks iterating over lists and higher order functions. With BYOB3 you will be able to do all this. But you don't have to program in anything else but Scratch/BYOB for this. Instead BYOB gives you all you need to make almost any block you can imagine.
(view all replies)cripes...
lol. scratch started as a simple fun little thing. now its turning into a regular languge
Hmm I tried replying but it doesn't seem to have gotten through. First, I replied to your comment on my "demo" project but it wouldn't let me call it a reply so you won't get a notification. Second, I think (hope?) Scratch/BYOB is/are still simple and fun! I bet you thought BROADCAST was a hard idea when you first saw it, but you got used to it. That's what we hope will happen with first class procedures too.