Will the project by 2.0ified and uploaded onto the 2.0 servers, or will there be an error? Just curious, and it's something to think about.

I assume that the Scratch 1.4 client would not be able to upload projects to Scratch 2.0 servers. It's easier to instruct users to import their 1.4 projects from the Scratch 2 web editor which automatically converts the file.

The 2.0 site will accept projects uploaded from the Scratch 1.4 client. And you can still download 1.4 projects and open them in 1.4.

But as soon as you make even a tiny change to a 1.4 project on the 2.0 site, it'll get converted to the 2.0 format - sb2 - and thus become incompatible with 1.4.

And there's no going back from 2.0 to 1.4? That sounds pretty nasty, since many projects may use 1.4-specific things, or are meant to be opened in 1.4 (e.g. the variable hacks like making moving/different-colored variables). Are you planning on making an (external, if necessary) converter? I could try doing it using Kurt, and you could run it on the servers (Kurt is an awesome Python library by blob8108 to parse Scratch 1.4 files including scripts, sprites, and costumes but not sound yet).

Since 2.0 will run on Python, they could just host the code on their servers. Then there's just a “download as Scratch 1.4 project” button somewhere which runs the code.

Or do a full scale conversion, including creating obsolete blocks, changing SVGs into GIFs, etc.

Hardmath123
And there's no going back from 2.0 to 1.4? That sounds pretty nasty, since many projects may use 1.4-specific things, or are meant to be opened in 1.4 (e.g. the variable hacks like making moving/different-colored variables). Are you planning on making an (external, if necessary) converter? I could try doing it using Kurt, and you could run it on the servers (Kurt is an awesome Python library by blob8108 to parse Scratch 1.4 files including scripts, sprites, and costumes but not sound yet).

You can still upload 1.4 projects onto 2.0.

Well, I guess the question is - why would you want / need to go back to the 1.4 format? Are the reasons strong enough to justify the added complexity of the interface, and potential confusion caused by it?

If you guys want to create a converter, go for it! But I don't think that's something we would want or need to support on the 2.0 site.

Later versions of software can often import files made by earlier versions, but you don't usually ask older versions of software to support later versions of file formats. That would require a time machine, I'm afraid - or the ability to perfectly predict the format / requirements of software that will only be developed in the future.

Someone should write a sci-fi short story about it.

Lightnin
Someone should write a sci-fi short story about it.

The future ST comes back in time after they develop Scratch 12.4 (the SDS is time travel… again) and gives the current ST the 12.x file format - ‘.sb12 .’ Unfortunately, history is changed with bizarre consequences (the Scratch Cat runs for President and wins ), and the future ST have to go back in time (again) to stop themselves from changing history. They also remove the time travel blocks from Scratch.
The end.

technoboy10
the Scratch Cat runs for President and wins

…with Gobo as his running mate, of course.

jvvg

technoboy10
the Scratch Cat runs for President and wins

…with Gobo as his running mate, of course.

Of course.

Lightnin
Well, I guess the question is - why would you want / need to go back to the 1.4 format? Are the reasons strong enough to justify the added complexity of the interface, and potential confusion caused by it?

If you guys want to create a converter, go for it! But I don't think that's something we would want or need to support on the 2.0 site.

Later versions of software can often import files made by earlier versions, but you don't usually ask older versions of software to support later versions of file formats. That would require a time machine, I'm afraid - or the ability to perfectly predict the format / requirements of software that will only be developed in the future.

Someone should write a sci-fi short story about it.

I need 1.4 to change variable watcher color. Can you add that to 2.0 without too much difficulty? You already have color pickers and right-click menus, so how hard can it be? The Flash Player already supports differently colored watchers: http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/Greenatic/2890511

Lightnin
Well, I guess the question is - why would you want / need to go back to the 1.4 format? Are the reasons strong enough to justify the added complexity of the interface, and potential confusion caused by it?

If you guys want to create a converter, go for it! But I don't think that's something we would want or need to support on the 2.0 site.

Later versions of software can often import files made by earlier versions, but you don't usually ask older versions of software to support later versions of file formats. That would require a time machine, I'm afraid - or the ability to perfectly predict the format / requirements of software that will only be developed in the future.

Someone should write a sci-fi short story about it.

Well, I suppose the benefits are that anyone ho for whatever reason doesn't have Flash can see inside projects, and that we can seamlessly go from Scratch 2.0 <=> Scratch 1.4 <=> BYOB 3.1 <=> Snap!

Hardmath123

Lightnin
Well, I guess the question is - why would you want / need to go back to the 1.4 format? Are the reasons strong enough to justify the added complexity of the interface, and potential confusion caused by it?

If you guys want to create a converter, go for it! But I don't think that's something we would want or need to support on the 2.0 site.

Later versions of software can often import files made by earlier versions, but you don't usually ask older versions of software to support later versions of file formats. That would require a time machine, I'm afraid - or the ability to perfectly predict the format / requirements of software that will only be developed in the future.

Someone should write a sci-fi short story about it.

Well, I suppose the benefits are that anyone ho for whatever reason doesn't have Flash can see inside projects, and that we can seamlessly go from Scratch 2.0 <=> Scratch 1.4 <=> BYOB 3.1 <=> Snap!

It's funny, sometimes I argue for something in design meetings, agree to compromise in some way, and then end up defending the compromise in conversations with Scratchers (even though it wasn't my first choice.)

Anyhow, there were those who didnt' want any way to download 1.4 projects even on projects made in 1.4 that were never opened in the 2.0 editor (and thus converted.) But I felt like it didn't make sense to do that to folks who, for whatever reason, won't or can't upgrade to 2.0, but want to be able to view 1.4 code and remix.

The counterpoint was - if they don't have flash, they can't even see a project to figure out if it's worth downloading. If they do have flash, they should just use the 2.0 editor.

Interesting point of view; I thought literally the opposite. Since Flashless people cannot view projects, they can download a 1.4 version and check it out, or, alternatively, maybe even view the project in the Java player.

Of course, you'll need to figure out what happens with the camera blocks (which are unsupported; ideally they would become remote sensor blocks with special inputs, or maybe just become global variables) and custom blocks (either internally keep them and display them as obsolete in 1.4's UI, or try to cleverly replace instances of nonrecursive custom blocks with the script?).

So, Hardmath, once there is an offline version of 2.0, you wouldn't care about 1.4?

Not at all! All the current Scratch mods (and maybe some future ones!) are/were written on top of Scratch 1.4. If I have an awesome 2.0 project which could be even better with Panther's file blocks, I would definitely want to be able to convert, right?

Hardmath123 wrote:

seamlessly go from Scratch 2.0 <=> Scratch 1.4 <=> BYOB 3.1 <=> Snap!

Hasn't nXIII written a Scratch 2.0 => Snap! converter yet?

There are now 1.75 million Raspberry Pi:s sold and the recommended Linux-distribution Rasbian has Scratch 1.4 installed from start and you can run it in a mode that boots to Scratch (1.4). Also, the only way to run Scratch-projects independently on other websites is to use the Java Player and that only handles Scratch 1.4-projects. It is possible to convert projects from 2.0 to 1.4 using Kurt Tools, see http://scratch.mit.edu/studios/244489/

I think there should be a warning before a Scratch 1.4-project is converted to Scratch 2 by opening the editor on the Scratch-website, because I often use a computer with Flash but I still don't want to convert my 1.4-projects just because I view the code.

I also think there should be a way to upload 1.4- and 2.0-projects using a Flashless browser, since one might want to have an alternative way of uploading. It should also be possible to replace an existing 1.4- and 2.0-project using a browser without Flash.